Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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I was too hasty in my original response. I went back before you responded and modified my post. Reread it if you have time. :)
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Tim doesn't care about God or any other gods. Tim doesn't find God appalling.
I did not say that Tim finds God appalling. I said he finds the idea of God appalling. Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God? Tim claimed he has no beliefs on the matter. I simply challenge his assertion. I think he does hold a position and that he is being either ignorant or dishonest. This discussion was never about God. It is about reason.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
He finds the thought of gods, religion and Christians that shoot of their mouths in so called debates with insults and remarks that are not 'Christian' like. They seem to make themselves out to be hypocrites and do more harm to Christianity than they do good.
I have not made any claims about God or Christianity in this thread. I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist. I have not made this thread about religion or belittled anyone for disagreeing with me. I did ask Tim if he is a simpleton because he continued to make up strawman arguments and attribute them to me. I posted very simple points that he was either unable or unwilling to respond to. I thought by asking the question, perhaps he would finally address my point so as to prove he was not a simpleton. I was trying to provoke him to answer the question.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God?
Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist.
I never said you were one or the other, nor did I imply it. I was talking about a certain type of person( or mentality). If that offended you I am sorry. For the record, I am a Christian and I freely and openly make that statement. I am done talking on this subject. Yes, I will ignore any replies.
God Bless, Jason
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God?
Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist.
I never said you were one or the other, nor did I imply it. I was talking about a certain type of person( or mentality). If that offended you I am sorry. For the record, I am a Christian and I freely and openly make that statement. I am done talking on this subject. Yes, I will ignore any replies.
God Bless, Jason
By all means, feel free to ignore this.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo Cani wrote: Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God? Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
I realize you are making a joke, but did you also intend it to address my question? I would assert again, that anyone who finds the idea of God appalling, holds a belief (one way or the other) on the matter. Your humorous response is not a good metaphor for addressing my point. Not caring about God is not the same as not caring about whether or not he exists.
Ian
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Demon Possessed wrote:
(with the exception of jason_lakewhitney)
Thanks for the complement. You and Tim are right. There are a lot of so called Christians here that just act stupid. And by their actions they make other Christians look bad. First of all a debate should never have any type of insults. Once again thanks and have a good day.
God Bless, Jason
Red Stateler was the worst of all of them. For some reason he disappeared shortly after I found out and posted his personal contact info. :laugh:
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Red Stateler was the worst of all of them. For some reason he disappeared shortly after I found out and posted his personal contact info. :laugh:
Demon Possessed wrote:
posted his personal contact info
Well, that not cool. But out of curiosity, did he live in the big house and have the life he said he did. He was always talking about his gated community.
God Bless, Jason
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Quote: "Since our parents knew that we would eventually disobey them someday, should they therefore be accountable/responsible for our disobedience even though they knew it would someday happen? Why create us at all knowing that we would someday disappoint them?" That analogy is fundamentally flawed, because parent's don't torture their kids forever if they misbehave like the Bible says that the Christian God does to his creations when they sin.
Demon Possessed wrote:
That analogy is fundamentally flawed, because parent's don't torture their kids forever if they misbehave like the Bible says that the Christian God does to his creations when they sin.
Sexual abusements, physical attacks and many other things I don't know the words on english are not torture? How many children goes to hospital because of the direct actions of their parents?
Greetings. -------- M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you “The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
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Firstly... sorry mathew, this is not a personal answer to you, but to the whole messages that hang from this one. After reading the subthreads I want to tell something: The person that believes in something, doesn't need any explanation. The person that doesn't believe, won't accept any explanation. So you can argue during years to try to "win" the other part with your arguments without any success. Just forget it and live your life as you want and with the believes you want to have It is already clear that we don't live in a perfect world, that we are not perfect, that we are the "most intelligent" animal in the surface of the earth. That we are able to do great things and are able to do things that even the "animals" wouldn't do. On the other hand... I think the human being NEEDS to believe in something, it is inherent to all of us. Call it whatever you want. Believes are something personal that helps us in our "dark moments", it doesn't matter if you claim God, Alah, E.T., Newtown, the spirit of the XXX. The only important thing is how do you feel after it. If you feel better... it was ok and its worthy. If not... well, life is cruel. The only thing I don't agree. Is to use that believes/faiths to justify our own actions. Like stupid wars, inquisition, terrorism or every stupidity the humanity has made across the history in the name of God, Alah, Zeus, Jupiter, Science, Spirit of the Tree... We just need one thing. To live respecting what we have around us, other people, animals, environment... Just with a bit more respect in the world, the world would be better for ALL of us. Have a nice day. P.D. I apologise if I can not explain myself correctly, I'm not english native speaker. -- modified at 5:35 Friday 30th November, 2007 Changed the subject of the message
------------------------ M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you “The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
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Firstly... sorry mathew, this is not a personal answer to you, but to the whole messages that hang from this one. After reading the subthreads I want to tell something: The person that believes in something, doesn't need any explanation. The person that doesn't believe, won't accept any explanation. So you can argue during years to try to "win" the other part with your arguments without any success. Just forget it and live your life as you want and with the believes you want to have It is already clear that we don't live in a perfect world, that we are not perfect, that we are the "most intelligent" animal in the surface of the earth. That we are able to do great things and are able to do things that even the "animals" wouldn't do. On the other hand... I think the human being NEEDS to believe in something, it is inherent to all of us. Call it whatever you want. Believes are something personal that helps us in our "dark moments", it doesn't matter if you claim God, Alah, E.T., Newtown, the spirit of the XXX. The only important thing is how do you feel after it. If you feel better... it was ok and its worthy. If not... well, life is cruel. The only thing I don't agree. Is to use that believes/faiths to justify our own actions. Like stupid wars, inquisition, terrorism or every stupidity the humanity has made across the history in the name of God, Alah, Zeus, Jupiter, Science, Spirit of the Tree... We just need one thing. To live respecting what we have around us, other people, animals, environment... Just with a bit more respect in the world, the world would be better for ALL of us. Have a nice day. P.D. I apologise if I can not explain myself correctly, I'm not english native speaker. -- modified at 5:35 Friday 30th November, 2007 Changed the subject of the message
------------------------ M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you “The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
Your comment doesn't surprise me it would be agreed with by the majority of people in my county. The problem is that by placing your own concept of what is justified, or political correctness, above the rules/ideas of any faith you have just created your own religion. You could call it post-modern agnosticism and it is technically insane because it denies its own existence by definition. This is now the majority religion amongst the under 25's in the UK. The author of the book I originally posted about predicted this in the 1950s along with the inevitable social and moral collapse that will result, followed by an anti-science, anti-reason radical mystisism we are now seeing the very beginning of, which will if it remains unchecked bring down our civilization completely. The intellectuals who post here attacking Christianity for not being rational are shooting themsleves in the foot because Christianity is the only hope to restore rationality as the norm in our society. Also their absolute belief in rationality is more like Christian fundamentalism than it is like post-modern agnosticism. They should be on our side for their good and by their own lights. I hope my English is clear enough. :)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
posted his personal contact info
Well, that not cool. But out of curiosity, did he live in the big house and have the life he said he did. He was always talking about his gated community.
God Bless, Jason
I don't know. All I found was his real name which was Eric Speir, and his personal email and phone numbers.
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Your comment doesn't surprise me it would be agreed with by the majority of people in my county. The problem is that by placing your own concept of what is justified, or political correctness, above the rules/ideas of any faith you have just created your own religion. You could call it post-modern agnosticism and it is technically insane because it denies its own existence by definition. This is now the majority religion amongst the under 25's in the UK. The author of the book I originally posted about predicted this in the 1950s along with the inevitable social and moral collapse that will result, followed by an anti-science, anti-reason radical mystisism we are now seeing the very beginning of, which will if it remains unchecked bring down our civilization completely. The intellectuals who post here attacking Christianity for not being rational are shooting themsleves in the foot because Christianity is the only hope to restore rationality as the norm in our society. Also their absolute belief in rationality is more like Christian fundamentalism than it is like post-modern agnosticism. They should be on our side for their good and by their own lights. I hope my English is clear enough. :)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
I actually don't see it as my "own religion", but as a philosophy of life. (Although I realice that is a "taste-depenging" name). I agree with you in some points, but the world and the people disapoint me everyday, but suddenly someone sursprises me with something altruist, an open and sincere smile to a stranger, helping someone that the rest of the people just ignores... and that makes me recover the faith, but sorry, I recover the faith not in the religious meaning, but in the people selves. I come from Spain, it is a catholic country, but I would say, catholic in our own way. I have seen people (that considerated themselves "very good christians") doing things that would freeze the blood of some people. On the other hand, I have seen people that nobody would give anything for them, doing things that should be filmed and shown at the schools to teach the kids what a good action is. Because of my own experience (I have met many people around the world with different religions and argued with them about differences between religions and countries, I have read, I have seen...) I consider that is not so important if one person believes in a God or in another (no matters the name), or if this person doesn't believe at all. For me the most important thing is to live the life being a good person, without hurting other people, trying to help as much as one can and things like that. Why? Because if there is no God... I will be able to be proud of my own life, enjoy my memories and die with my consciense and my "soul" in peace. And I will survive in the hearts and memories of the people I could help during my life. If there is certain a God... and he/she/it is as religion says: full of love, able to forgive and so on... Then I think it won't make any difference what a person has believed in his/her life, but it will DO make a difference, how his/her behaviour was, what he/she did to help / not to hurt the others. If an assasin can repent his sins in the last minute and all will be forgiven... why a person that lived his/her life being better "christian" than many christians should have problems? In resume: I think is not so important what you believe, it is important what you really do with your life.
Greetings. -------- M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you “The First Rule of Program Opti
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I actually don't see it as my "own religion", but as a philosophy of life. (Although I realice that is a "taste-depenging" name). I agree with you in some points, but the world and the people disapoint me everyday, but suddenly someone sursprises me with something altruist, an open and sincere smile to a stranger, helping someone that the rest of the people just ignores... and that makes me recover the faith, but sorry, I recover the faith not in the religious meaning, but in the people selves. I come from Spain, it is a catholic country, but I would say, catholic in our own way. I have seen people (that considerated themselves "very good christians") doing things that would freeze the blood of some people. On the other hand, I have seen people that nobody would give anything for them, doing things that should be filmed and shown at the schools to teach the kids what a good action is. Because of my own experience (I have met many people around the world with different religions and argued with them about differences between religions and countries, I have read, I have seen...) I consider that is not so important if one person believes in a God or in another (no matters the name), or if this person doesn't believe at all. For me the most important thing is to live the life being a good person, without hurting other people, trying to help as much as one can and things like that. Why? Because if there is no God... I will be able to be proud of my own life, enjoy my memories and die with my consciense and my "soul" in peace. And I will survive in the hearts and memories of the people I could help during my life. If there is certain a God... and he/she/it is as religion says: full of love, able to forgive and so on... Then I think it won't make any difference what a person has believed in his/her life, but it will DO make a difference, how his/her behaviour was, what he/she did to help / not to hurt the others. If an assasin can repent his sins in the last minute and all will be forgiven... why a person that lived his/her life being better "christian" than many christians should have problems? In resume: I think is not so important what you believe, it is important what you really do with your life.
Greetings. -------- M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you “The First Rule of Program Opti
Nelek wrote:
I actually don't see it as my "own religion", but as a philosophy of life.
Exactly and this allows you not to evaluate it on a level basis with other religions, it is 'above' religion in your mind which is potentially a big problem if one of the religions is actually the truth you cannot ever recognize it becuse all religions are beneath your philosophy.
Nelek wrote:
think is not so important what you believe, it is important what you really do with your life
Up to a point I would agree with you but remember if there is a God then almost by definition his standards are perfect. You may think your deeds are good but by who's standards will God judge you, yours, mine, or his? The Bible says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Our fine assessments of one person being better than another are nothing in the sight of God, we are all condemned by our imperfection so what can we do? Nothing, he has done for us what is needed, paid the price for all our wrongs. The assassin who repents at the last minute can be forgiven because Jesus has already paid the price for all his crimes. If he recognises his sin and hands it over to God then it is gone and he is justified. If you rely on your own righteousness rather than God's then what chance do you stand when judged by his standards. The repentant assasin will be in a better position than you just as a debtor who's million dollar debt is paid is in a better position than a debtor who's 10 dollar debt is not. Also you will find that it is much easier to live a good life now with God's help. Don't wait till the last minute and miss out in this life. Remember that most people who call themselves Christians these days are not so be careful of judging God by thise who claim him. Get to know him for yourself.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Nelek wrote:
I actually don't see it as my "own religion", but as a philosophy of life.
Exactly and this allows you not to evaluate it on a level basis with other religions, it is 'above' religion in your mind which is potentially a big problem if one of the religions is actually the truth you cannot ever recognize it becuse all religions are beneath your philosophy.
Nelek wrote:
think is not so important what you believe, it is important what you really do with your life
Up to a point I would agree with you but remember if there is a God then almost by definition his standards are perfect. You may think your deeds are good but by who's standards will God judge you, yours, mine, or his? The Bible says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Our fine assessments of one person being better than another are nothing in the sight of God, we are all condemned by our imperfection so what can we do? Nothing, he has done for us what is needed, paid the price for all our wrongs. The assassin who repents at the last minute can be forgiven because Jesus has already paid the price for all his crimes. If he recognises his sin and hands it over to God then it is gone and he is justified. If you rely on your own righteousness rather than God's then what chance do you stand when judged by his standards. The repentant assasin will be in a better position than you just as a debtor who's million dollar debt is paid is in a better position than a debtor who's 10 dollar debt is not. Also you will find that it is much easier to live a good life now with God's help. Don't wait till the last minute and miss out in this life. Remember that most people who call themselves Christians these days are not so be careful of judging God by thise who claim him. Get to know him for yourself.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Remember that most people who call themselves Christians these days are not so be careful of judging God by thise who claim him.
I don't understand what you mean with that.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Get to know him for yourself.
This point is something important, specially "for yourself". One thing is faith or believes in God. And other very different is "church". I have nothing against the first one, but the second one is a human construction and has (in many cases) more to do with polithics than with religion. I don't know if you have seen the film "Stigmata", but I totally agree with those 2 supposed last lines of a Bible's text in the film. (Shame that I don't remember them now, but it was something about the church and that the church / house of God was in our heart). As I said... I have seen many things. I.E.: A man of God (father in the church of the town I come from) saying very pretty things about God, threating the "pecators" with the hell if blablabla. And 2 hours later... he was going to another town in casual clothes to do exactly what he was telling it is prohibited. I am not against God, I am against the human being that says "I serve God", "I am a good christian", "You are a pecator" and things like that. Just for the same reason that you told me. If they are just humans... Who are they to judge me or to judge anyone else? Why are they better than the rest of the people (specially the ones whose Hipocresy has no limits)? Because of that, I said that about my "philosophy" and what my heart says me is correct. I know that I can be wrong (of course, I am not perfect). And actually I didn't say I don't believe in God, I need also something bigger than me to believe in (as I said above). The difference is that I don't say that one religion is better than another one. Christianism has different types, then come the Jeobah testimonies, the OPUS, the... Then another religions... then sectas... and all say they are right, that they will gain the paradise... Who is really right? Are there 20 Gods? Are just one? Which one? You will of course say there is only one and is the christian God. I believe there is something supreme, but the difference is that I think that all religions have some parts of true, are right in some points and false in anothers. And that all religions speak about the same supreme entity, but everyone makes it in its own way, an
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Remember that most people who call themselves Christians these days are not so be careful of judging God by thise who claim him.
I don't understand what you mean with that.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Get to know him for yourself.
This point is something important, specially "for yourself". One thing is faith or believes in God. And other very different is "church". I have nothing against the first one, but the second one is a human construction and has (in many cases) more to do with polithics than with religion. I don't know if you have seen the film "Stigmata", but I totally agree with those 2 supposed last lines of a Bible's text in the film. (Shame that I don't remember them now, but it was something about the church and that the church / house of God was in our heart). As I said... I have seen many things. I.E.: A man of God (father in the church of the town I come from) saying very pretty things about God, threating the "pecators" with the hell if blablabla. And 2 hours later... he was going to another town in casual clothes to do exactly what he was telling it is prohibited. I am not against God, I am against the human being that says "I serve God", "I am a good christian", "You are a pecator" and things like that. Just for the same reason that you told me. If they are just humans... Who are they to judge me or to judge anyone else? Why are they better than the rest of the people (specially the ones whose Hipocresy has no limits)? Because of that, I said that about my "philosophy" and what my heart says me is correct. I know that I can be wrong (of course, I am not perfect). And actually I didn't say I don't believe in God, I need also something bigger than me to believe in (as I said above). The difference is that I don't say that one religion is better than another one. Christianism has different types, then come the Jeobah testimonies, the OPUS, the... Then another religions... then sectas... and all say they are right, that they will gain the paradise... Who is really right? Are there 20 Gods? Are just one? Which one? You will of course say there is only one and is the christian God. I believe there is something supreme, but the difference is that I think that all religions have some parts of true, are right in some points and false in anothers. And that all religions speak about the same supreme entity, but everyone makes it in its own way, an
Nelek wrote:
I don't understand what you mean with that.
What I mean is that people saying, "I am a Christian" does not make them one. Only God says who is and who is not on his list. Don't wait till the moment you die to discover the only real truth, discover it before it is too late, everyone does not make his own he decieves himself and serves the devil without knowing it.
Nelek wrote:
Who is really right?
Ask the one who knows for sure, the God that your heart tells you is out there. He is not far from you. Ask sincerely and perhaps he will answer and then you will know for sure. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.