New CP, new person - same old arguments!
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That is a terrible excuse for ignoring it! Why does caring about people mean you can't also care about animals? Basically, you don't WANT to, be truthful and admit that's what it comes down to. You don't want to change your eating/living habits, but do want an excuse to feel good about yourself, so you tell yourself what a good person you are because you care about people. What you are doing is using the extreme views of some animal rightists as an excuse to not have to think about this issue. But it's irrelvant - so what if you don't agree with them? Why does that stop you from caring about the abuse of animals? If you want to care about people first and foremost, fine - but you can still care about animal welfare whatever the case, and whatever others do. And one reason some of us are so vocal about it is because the animals cannot speak for themselves. No animal has volunteered to be medically experimented on, or to be killed for your dinner. I don't not care about people - I just know there are plenty of people working and fighting on their behalf, but precious few who will argue the animals' corner. It is a red-herring, a deliberate distraction to move the argument away from animal rights and onto one about who cares most for what.
Fred_Smith wrote:
...or to be killed for your dinner.
Cows were made for eating. Why else would they be filled with beef? :laugh:
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Pssst..... I'm telling you a secret.... in the real life bunnies and snakes don't speak ;-P
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
yeah yeah - you'll be telling me you don't believe in Father Christmas next... :) I know another joke about talking rabbits - this one's actually quite funny. Comes from Lithuania. Rabbit walks into a vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Sorry," replies the owner, "bad time of year for carrots. All sold out. Come back next month." "OK." Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Huh? I told you yesterday, rabbit, we don't have any. Come back next month." "OK" Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Grr get this bloody rabbit, WE HAVE NO CARROTS! Now bugger off!" "OK!" Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "AARGH! Jesus H Christ rabbit, if you come into this shop again asking for carrots I'm going to nail your ears to the counter and beat you! Now get lost!" "OK! OK! Blimey, keep yer hair on.." Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any nails?" he asks. "huh? What? No of course not - we're a vegetable shop!" "Good! Got any carrots?!" :-D
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Animals do exist to serve us
I'm curious as to on what you base this assertion. What, because The Bible Tells You So? I got news for you: most of the animals we eat and farm lived LONG before our species ever did. The world did just fine without human "stewardship" and the idea that we, as fallible, error-prone and mostly shortsighted creatures could EVER be good stewards of a planet is simply laughable.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
I'm not sure whether that's false humilty or inverted pride, either way you seriously need to do some research before jumping in with both feet.
Patrick Sears wrote:
What, because The Bible Tells You So?
Yep, and that's a pretty good reason, as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved apart from anything else.
Patrick Sears wrote:
of the animals we eat and farm lived LONG before our species ever did.
Wrong in so many ways. Most of the domesticated sub species that we farm and eat today couldn't even survive in the wild, their calorie requirements and growth rates are too high for any natural environment. They are as dependent on us as we are on them. The world has never been without human stewardship and is in the state it's in precisely because we are fallible, error prone, shortsighted, greedy and selfish creatures. Just as the Bible says. It also says that our stewardship will ultimately fail and huge swathes of our environment and the natural world will be destroyed before the end. This of course doesn't lessen our responsibility to see that this does not come about in our generation. Perhaps if you read a bit more of what the Bible tells us you'd understand my position on this and other issues.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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yeah yeah - you'll be telling me you don't believe in Father Christmas next... :) I know another joke about talking rabbits - this one's actually quite funny. Comes from Lithuania. Rabbit walks into a vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Sorry," replies the owner, "bad time of year for carrots. All sold out. Come back next month." "OK." Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Huh? I told you yesterday, rabbit, we don't have any. Come back next month." "OK" Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "Grr get this bloody rabbit, WE HAVE NO CARROTS! Now bugger off!" "OK!" Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any carrots?" he asks. "AARGH! Jesus H Christ rabbit, if you come into this shop again asking for carrots I'm going to nail your ears to the counter and beat you! Now get lost!" "OK! OK! Blimey, keep yer hair on.." Next day. Rabbit walks into the same vegetable shop. "Got any nails?" he asks. "huh? What? No of course not - we're a vegetable shop!" "Good! Got any carrots?!" :-D
:-D Nice. Another one about rabbit: A bear and a rabbit are taking a shit in the woods. The bear turns to the rabbit and asks, "Mr Rabbit, do you ever have trouble with shit sticking to your fur?" The rabbit replies, "Why, no, Mr Bear!" So the bear picks up the rabbit and wipes his ass with it.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
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:-D Nice. Another one about rabbit: A bear and a rabbit are taking a shit in the woods. The bear turns to the rabbit and asks, "Mr Rabbit, do you ever have trouble with shit sticking to your fur?" The rabbit replies, "Why, no, Mr Bear!" So the bear picks up the rabbit and wipes his ass with it.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
See! I knew you were just joking about animals not being able to talk! ;P
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I'm not sure whether that's false humilty or inverted pride, either way you seriously need to do some research before jumping in with both feet.
Patrick Sears wrote:
What, because The Bible Tells You So?
Yep, and that's a pretty good reason, as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved apart from anything else.
Patrick Sears wrote:
of the animals we eat and farm lived LONG before our species ever did.
Wrong in so many ways. Most of the domesticated sub species that we farm and eat today couldn't even survive in the wild, their calorie requirements and growth rates are too high for any natural environment. They are as dependent on us as we are on them. The world has never been without human stewardship and is in the state it's in precisely because we are fallible, error prone, shortsighted, greedy and selfish creatures. Just as the Bible says. It also says that our stewardship will ultimately fail and huge swathes of our environment and the natural world will be destroyed before the end. This of course doesn't lessen our responsibility to see that this does not come about in our generation. Perhaps if you read a bit more of what the Bible tells us you'd understand my position on this and other issues.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
As usual in the Bible, it can be interprested in whatever wsay the reader wants, but Genesis says (my empahasis): "So God created man ... and God said... I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved
:laugh: :laugh: Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? Ever heard of witches beiung burned at the stake? The catalogue of unjustices that can be DIRECTLY attributed to Christianity is almost endless. It was only AFTER the separation of justice from religion that we have anything approaching a decent system.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
it's in precisely because we are ... greedy and selfish
So we do agree on that then, after all. When God says it, you agree, when I say it, it's because I;m a nutter. Obviously you don't believe in absolute truth then.
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Fred_Smith wrote:
...or to be killed for your dinner.
Cows were made for eating. Why else would they be filled with beef? :laugh:
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
DavidCrow wrote:
Cows were made for eating. Why else would they be filled with beef?
I guess people must be made for flushing down toilets, using that logic....
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As usual in the Bible, it can be interprested in whatever wsay the reader wants, but Genesis says (my empahasis): "So God created man ... and God said... I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved
:laugh: :laugh: Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? Ever heard of witches beiung burned at the stake? The catalogue of unjustices that can be DIRECTLY attributed to Christianity is almost endless. It was only AFTER the separation of justice from religion that we have anything approaching a decent system.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
it's in precisely because we are ... greedy and selfish
So we do agree on that then, after all. When God says it, you agree, when I say it, it's because I;m a nutter. Obviously you don't believe in absolute truth then.
Fred_Smith wrote:
As usual in the Bible, it can be interprested in whatever wsay the reader wants
No, not honestly.
Fred_Smith wrote:
"So God created man ... and God said... I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
Correct. Check how God updated the allowed list after the flood. A new ecology with an altered diet for man to go with it.
Fred_Smith wrote:
The catalogue of unjustices that can be DIRECTLY attributed to Christianity is almost endless.
No it is precisely zero as all these actions contradict the teachings of Christ and are therefore not Chirstian, that were carried out by people who called thenselves Christians is about as diagnostics as saying its science because someone who claims to be a scientist did it. <blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">Fred_Smith wrote:</div>So we do agree on that then</blockquote> Yes and it has no part in my disagreement with you. The falleness of both man and nature is a interesting and under discussed topic, even in Christian circles.
Fred_Smith wrote:
you don't believe in absolute truth then.
I absolutely do and to quote David Bowie "It's absolutely true." :-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Fred_Smith wrote:
As usual in the Bible, it can be interprested in whatever wsay the reader wants
No, not honestly.
Fred_Smith wrote:
"So God created man ... and God said... I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
Correct. Check how God updated the allowed list after the flood. A new ecology with an altered diet for man to go with it.
Fred_Smith wrote:
The catalogue of unjustices that can be DIRECTLY attributed to Christianity is almost endless.
No it is precisely zero as all these actions contradict the teachings of Christ and are therefore not Chirstian, that were carried out by people who called thenselves Christians is about as diagnostics as saying its science because someone who claims to be a scientist did it. <blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">Fred_Smith wrote:</div>So we do agree on that then</blockquote> Yes and it has no part in my disagreement with you. The falleness of both man and nature is a interesting and under discussed topic, even in Christian circles.
Fred_Smith wrote:
you don't believe in absolute truth then.
I absolutely do and to quote David Bowie "It's absolutely true." :-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
about as diagnostics as saying its science because someone who claims to be a scientist did it.
rather as I feel about vivisection.... :) have we come full circle?
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Fred_Smith wrote:
What is your take on this[^]?
I think that's a misrepresentation of the discovery of insulin. Banting and Best discovered insulin by analysing the pancreases of dogs. Insulin was discovered in 1922. Prior to 1922, nobody knew of it - if you want to be pedantic, in 1919 a Romanian basically isolated insulin, but was unable to fully understand what he had. History contradicts what is written in the site you linked to. If what that site claims was true, then by now (in modern times) there would be a cure for diabetes rather than treatment with insulin. Such is not the case because the disease is quite complex. It is also very easy to make these claims in retrospect. At the time, the situation was not so clear.
Well it then becomes (yet another) example of how one set of scientists say one thing and another say something else. We see it in this debate, in GW debates, etc etc. So much for objective truth, hey?
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I'm not sure whether that's false humilty or inverted pride, either way you seriously need to do some research before jumping in with both feet.
Patrick Sears wrote:
What, because The Bible Tells You So?
Yep, and that's a pretty good reason, as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved apart from anything else.
Patrick Sears wrote:
of the animals we eat and farm lived LONG before our species ever did.
Wrong in so many ways. Most of the domesticated sub species that we farm and eat today couldn't even survive in the wild, their calorie requirements and growth rates are too high for any natural environment. They are as dependent on us as we are on them. The world has never been without human stewardship and is in the state it's in precisely because we are fallible, error prone, shortsighted, greedy and selfish creatures. Just as the Bible says. It also says that our stewardship will ultimately fail and huge swathes of our environment and the natural world will be destroyed before the end. This of course doesn't lessen our responsibility to see that this does not come about in our generation. Perhaps if you read a bit more of what the Bible tells us you'd understand my position on this and other issues.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
as basing 1000 years of the worlds most successful justice system on it has proved apart from anything else.
Oh, that's right. The prior 1 billion years of life on this planet is NOTHING compared to the mere 1000 years of human jurisprudence. I guess that 1 billion years proves that the planet can't take care of itself without humans. Gotcha.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Wrong in so many ways. Most of the domesticated sub species that we farm and eat today couldn't even survive in the wild, their calorie requirements and growth rates are too high for any natural environment. They are as dependent on us as we are on them.
All that proves is how unstable what we've built really is. If human civilization falters even for a moment, we're going to take most of the planet with us. How's that for good stewardship. "We don't survive, neither do you, suckers!!" Nice. What sort of God would put a species in charge of the Earth he KNEW would destroy everything. That doesn't seem terribly intelligent. Oh, that's right, because we're his master creation. Screw the other 100 million species on the planet, it's all about US, right? That's some kinda arrogance if I ever heard of it. Incidentally, few religions are so obvious about the fact that they need to advocate ownership of the earth in order to encourage civilizational growth. That's why Christianity has been so successful: at its very heart, its sole purpose is to encourage the growth and power of civilization. There's no counter force.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The world has never been without human stewardship
I guess you'd have to accept the most literal interpretation of the Bible to believe that. Few of the established religions themselves would even assent to that.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Perhaps if you read a bit more of what the Bible tells us you'd understand my position on this and other issues.
I've read the entire thing, several times, AND spent significant time in scholarly study on the subject. I am more than capable of making an objective judgement of its tenets by including outside information, something you don't appear willing to do.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert
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Most companies no longer test on animals for small stuff--no more lipstick in the eyes of rabbits. I am a HUGE animal lover. But I do think some animal testing is necessary for diseases and medicine. Apes have 99% same genetics as animals. We use pig heart valves to replace human ones. This is not just chance.
Current Rant: "Chuck for Huck?" http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
You're not using this to scare the cats off the headboard are you? "If you don't leave the bed alone - it's the lipstick factory for you."
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Do you also think Satan and Communists are your biggest enemies?
America single handedly defeated communism in 1989 when Ronald Regan tore down the Berlin wall. Now we are fighting a even more evil enemy in the fight to bring freedom to the middle east. America is busy fighting the works of Satan all over the world and you foreigners aren't doing anything, so STFU.
Some of us try to provide a comfortable shelter for him.