The US as a banana republic
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BoneSoft wrote:
And his legal team seems to think that "sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation & enforced stress positions" constitutes torture.
Sensory or sleep deprivation is torture. So are enforced stress positions. You know this, but you pretend it's no big deal to ease your conscience. If those techniques were not torture, why would they be used to extract information? Making someone slightly uncomfortable is not going to accomplish anything and you know that, too. But, sure, it's like being at the DMV. Whatever helps you get through the day as a torturer by proxy. Be careful, though, torture breaks down the torturer as surely as it breaks down the victim.
Some have argued that being nice to people is the best way to extract information. By your definition, does that make being nice to people torture? Or does any method of extracting information constitute torture? Does that make it wrong to extract information at all? Give me a break. Even with sleep and sensory deprivation and stress enforced positions, they're more comfortable than your every day homeless person. I sleep just fine knowing that that's happening to people that want me dead.
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BoneSoft wrote:
seems to think that "sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation & enforced stress positions" constitutes torture.
They don't just 'seem to think it'. They are crimes under US law.
BoneSoft wrote:
I should be able to sue the bank and the DMV for making me stand in line.
X| I honestly hope you don't really believe that.
Come on, I'll agree with you that water boarding can be considered torture, but sleep and sensory deprivation? That happens in prison daily and nobody has a problem with it. Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
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BoneSoft wrote:
And his legal team seems to think that "sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation & enforced stress positions" constitutes torture.
Sensory or sleep deprivation is torture. So are enforced stress positions. You know this, but you pretend it's no big deal to ease your conscience. If those techniques were not torture, why would they be used to extract information? Making someone slightly uncomfortable is not going to accomplish anything and you know that, too. But, sure, it's like being at the DMV. Whatever helps you get through the day as a torturer by proxy. Be careful, though, torture breaks down the torturer as surely as it breaks down the victim.
Yep, after reading that again, as written you are saying that torture is the only way to extract information. And if that were true I'd say torture the crap out of them. But if that were true, anybody that hands you a form to fill out or asks you what time it is is torturing you. I suspect that wasn't your intent, but what you write is all I've got to go on, and you definitely see things from a different perspective than I do so I don't dare guess at your meaning.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Ask virtually any Japanese about that and they'll tell you that it was justified and it almost certainly saved lives.
You've got to be kidding me. Saved lives, maybe, but we dropped those bombs on civilian targets. The nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened.
Yes they make it a point to always remember, but more in the context of 'this is what happens when we do horrible things to other people'. And they still recognize that it was probably the only thing that would have ended the war.
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So impeach him. Whats the problem?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
When did you come up with the quaint notion that I am the House of Representatives?
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Come on, I'll agree with you that water boarding can be considered torture, but sleep and sensory deprivation? That happens in prison daily and nobody has a problem with it. Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
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BoneSoft wrote:
water boarding can be considered torture,
Not 'can be considered', it is torture. The other two, I'm not going to research whether or not they are considered torture, but they are both illegal under US law as I stated, so it doesn't matter that they rise to the level of torture.
BoneSoft wrote:
Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
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When did you come up with the quaint notion that I am the House of Representatives?
What do you think the term "representative" means?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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BoneSoft wrote:
water boarding can be considered torture,
Not 'can be considered', it is torture. The other two, I'm not going to research whether or not they are considered torture, but they are both illegal under US law as I stated, so it doesn't matter that they rise to the level of torture.
BoneSoft wrote:
Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
oilFactotum wrote:
but they are both illegal under US law as I stated
So lets change the that law. Stupid laws need to change.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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BoneSoft wrote:
water boarding can be considered torture,
Not 'can be considered', it is torture. The other two, I'm not going to research whether or not they are considered torture, but they are both illegal under US law as I stated, so it doesn't matter that they rise to the level of torture.
BoneSoft wrote:
Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
oilFactotum wrote:
they are both illegal under US law as I stated
I've never heard of any law against them, which granted doesn't mean much, but sensory deprivation is done in every prison in the country every day. And sleep deprivation is on page 1 on the interrogation manual, sensory deprivation is on the cover. You may be right, and if so I'd like to know, but I have a hard time believing it. But I certainly wouldn't consider them torture, they're not harmed, have no permanent effects, and there's no chance of them dieing from it. If you want information from bad guys, and smacking them around isn't OK, what other option do you have? You do want information from bad guys don't you?
oilFactotum wrote:
BoneSoft wrote: Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly. No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
Spend 3 - 4 hours in the dark every night with a baby on your shoulder. 4 hours of sleep every single day for months on end is pretty serious sleep deprivation. I think I'd rather be forced to stay awake for 3 or 4 days in a small empty room while being asked the same questions over and over again than go through that again. That would probably be healthier too.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/this-is-a-banan.html[^] "We live in a country where the government can detain indefinitely, torture in secret, and then secretly destroy the tapes of torture sessions to protect its own staff"
I am not sure about the "republic" part, though :cool:
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
oilFactotum wrote:
but they are both illegal under US law as I stated
So lets change the that law. Stupid laws need to change.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
I agree, if it actually is illegal, I don't think it should be. Sensory deprivation does nothing but make people more eager to engage and increases suggestibility. Sleep deprivation won't do them any harm, but it's real incentive to cooperate. Same with forced stress positions.
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I am not sure about the "republic" part, though :cool:
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighistThat's just a side effect of being WAY out in left field. You should have read the warning label.
Lefties
If recommended dosage is exceeded, patients report bizarre ideas that wildly diverge from reality. A small number of cases experience mental illness as a result of taking Lefties. Do not give to children under the age of 80. Other side effects include vomiting, crying, bleeding heart syndrome, irrational argument syndrome, feeling sorry for bad people getting what they deserve, anal leakage, and paranoia generally aimed at the government and or George Bush personally. If any of these side effects lasts more than four hours, consult a doctor.
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What do you think the term "representative" means?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
I know what it means and it does not mean that I am the House of Representatives.
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oilFactotum wrote:
but they are both illegal under US law as I stated
So lets change the that law. Stupid laws need to change.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
It's a smart law meant to stop stupid behavior.
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That's just a side effect of being WAY out in left field. You should have read the warning label.
Lefties
If recommended dosage is exceeded, patients report bizarre ideas that wildly diverge from reality. A small number of cases experience mental illness as a result of taking Lefties. Do not give to children under the age of 80. Other side effects include vomiting, crying, bleeding heart syndrome, irrational argument syndrome, feeling sorry for bad people getting what they deserve, anal leakage, and paranoia generally aimed at the government and or George Bush personally. If any of these side effects lasts more than four hours, consult a doctor.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
C'mon, take it like a real man. ;P
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
BoneSoft wrote:
First off you're wrong. Replace "WMD's" with "atomic weapons" and you're correct.
I'm curious about your meaning. If atomic weapons are not WMD's then nothing is.
No they are. What's incorrect is that the US is the only country to ever use WMDs. Saddam & his mustard gas comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other instance. Actually now that I think of it, the Japanese used biological weapons in WWII, and I know some others have as well. So it would be correct to say that the US is the only country to use atomic weapons, but not WMDs.
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I know what it means and it does not mean that I am the House of Representatives.
They speak for you. If they are not prosecuting your agenda, that means you lose.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I agree, if it actually is illegal, I don't think it should be. Sensory deprivation does nothing but make people more eager to engage and increases suggestibility. Sleep deprivation won't do them any harm, but it's real incentive to cooperate. Same with forced stress positions.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Precisely. The fact that some people get more bent out of shape by depriving someone of sleep than they do of mass murder tells you everything you need to know about them.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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C'mon, take it like a real man. ;P
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighistI know plenty of people that can vouch for my manhood... But what am I supposed to take? 'The US isn't a republic' is even more fantastical than the 'imperialism' crap argument. Anybody without a head wound and/or not in desperate need of medication can see through them.
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oilFactotum wrote:
they are both illegal under US law as I stated
I've never heard of any law against them, which granted doesn't mean much, but sensory deprivation is done in every prison in the country every day. And sleep deprivation is on page 1 on the interrogation manual, sensory deprivation is on the cover. You may be right, and if so I'd like to know, but I have a hard time believing it. But I certainly wouldn't consider them torture, they're not harmed, have no permanent effects, and there's no chance of them dieing from it. If you want information from bad guys, and smacking them around isn't OK, what other option do you have? You do want information from bad guys don't you?
oilFactotum wrote:
BoneSoft wrote: Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly. No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
Spend 3 - 4 hours in the dark every night with a baby on your shoulder. 4 hours of sleep every single day for months on end is pretty serious sleep deprivation. I think I'd rather be forced to stay awake for 3 or 4 days in a small empty room while being asked the same questions over and over again than go through that again. That would probably be healthier too.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Aww, some little jackass is voting all my posts a 1. Gee, I wonder who that could be... :~
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.