The US as a banana republic
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BoneSoft wrote:
water boarding can be considered torture,
Not 'can be considered', it is torture. The other two, I'm not going to research whether or not they are considered torture, but they are both illegal under US law as I stated, so it doesn't matter that they rise to the level of torture.
BoneSoft wrote:
Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly.
No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
oilFactotum wrote:
they are both illegal under US law as I stated
I've never heard of any law against them, which granted doesn't mean much, but sensory deprivation is done in every prison in the country every day. And sleep deprivation is on page 1 on the interrogation manual, sensory deprivation is on the cover. You may be right, and if so I'd like to know, but I have a hard time believing it. But I certainly wouldn't consider them torture, they're not harmed, have no permanent effects, and there's no chance of them dieing from it. If you want information from bad guys, and smacking them around isn't OK, what other option do you have? You do want information from bad guys don't you?
oilFactotum wrote:
BoneSoft wrote: Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly. No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
Spend 3 - 4 hours in the dark every night with a baby on your shoulder. 4 hours of sleep every single day for months on end is pretty serious sleep deprivation. I think I'd rather be forced to stay awake for 3 or 4 days in a small empty room while being asked the same questions over and over again than go through that again. That would probably be healthier too.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/this-is-a-banan.html[^] "We live in a country where the government can detain indefinitely, torture in secret, and then secretly destroy the tapes of torture sessions to protect its own staff"
I am not sure about the "republic" part, though :cool:
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
oilFactotum wrote:
but they are both illegal under US law as I stated
So lets change the that law. Stupid laws need to change.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
I agree, if it actually is illegal, I don't think it should be. Sensory deprivation does nothing but make people more eager to engage and increases suggestibility. Sleep deprivation won't do them any harm, but it's real incentive to cooperate. Same with forced stress positions.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I am not sure about the "republic" part, though :cool:
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighistThat's just a side effect of being WAY out in left field. You should have read the warning label.
Lefties
If recommended dosage is exceeded, patients report bizarre ideas that wildly diverge from reality. A small number of cases experience mental illness as a result of taking Lefties. Do not give to children under the age of 80. Other side effects include vomiting, crying, bleeding heart syndrome, irrational argument syndrome, feeling sorry for bad people getting what they deserve, anal leakage, and paranoia generally aimed at the government and or George Bush personally. If any of these side effects lasts more than four hours, consult a doctor.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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What do you think the term "representative" means?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
I know what it means and it does not mean that I am the House of Representatives.
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oilFactotum wrote:
but they are both illegal under US law as I stated
So lets change the that law. Stupid laws need to change.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
It's a smart law meant to stop stupid behavior.
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That's just a side effect of being WAY out in left field. You should have read the warning label.
Lefties
If recommended dosage is exceeded, patients report bizarre ideas that wildly diverge from reality. A small number of cases experience mental illness as a result of taking Lefties. Do not give to children under the age of 80. Other side effects include vomiting, crying, bleeding heart syndrome, irrational argument syndrome, feeling sorry for bad people getting what they deserve, anal leakage, and paranoia generally aimed at the government and or George Bush personally. If any of these side effects lasts more than four hours, consult a doctor.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
C'mon, take it like a real man. ;P
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
BoneSoft wrote:
First off you're wrong. Replace "WMD's" with "atomic weapons" and you're correct.
I'm curious about your meaning. If atomic weapons are not WMD's then nothing is.
No they are. What's incorrect is that the US is the only country to ever use WMDs. Saddam & his mustard gas comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other instance. Actually now that I think of it, the Japanese used biological weapons in WWII, and I know some others have as well. So it would be correct to say that the US is the only country to use atomic weapons, but not WMDs.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I know what it means and it does not mean that I am the House of Representatives.
They speak for you. If they are not prosecuting your agenda, that means you lose.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I agree, if it actually is illegal, I don't think it should be. Sensory deprivation does nothing but make people more eager to engage and increases suggestibility. Sleep deprivation won't do them any harm, but it's real incentive to cooperate. Same with forced stress positions.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Precisely. The fact that some people get more bent out of shape by depriving someone of sleep than they do of mass murder tells you everything you need to know about them.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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C'mon, take it like a real man. ;P
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighistI know plenty of people that can vouch for my manhood... But what am I supposed to take? 'The US isn't a republic' is even more fantastical than the 'imperialism' crap argument. Anybody without a head wound and/or not in desperate need of medication can see through them.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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oilFactotum wrote:
they are both illegal under US law as I stated
I've never heard of any law against them, which granted doesn't mean much, but sensory deprivation is done in every prison in the country every day. And sleep deprivation is on page 1 on the interrogation manual, sensory deprivation is on the cover. You may be right, and if so I'd like to know, but I have a hard time believing it. But I certainly wouldn't consider them torture, they're not harmed, have no permanent effects, and there's no chance of them dieing from it. If you want information from bad guys, and smacking them around isn't OK, what other option do you have? You do want information from bad guys don't you?
oilFactotum wrote:
BoneSoft wrote: Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly. No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
Spend 3 - 4 hours in the dark every night with a baby on your shoulder. 4 hours of sleep every single day for months on end is pretty serious sleep deprivation. I think I'd rather be forced to stay awake for 3 or 4 days in a small empty room while being asked the same questions over and over again than go through that again. That would probably be healthier too.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Aww, some little jackass is voting all my posts a 1. Gee, I wonder who that could be... :~
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I know plenty of people that can vouch for my manhood... But what am I supposed to take? 'The US isn't a republic' is even more fantastical than the 'imperialism' crap argument. Anybody without a head wound and/or not in desperate need of medication can see through them.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BoneSoft wrote:
'The US isn't a republic' is even more fantastical than the 'imperialism' crap argument.
That's why I said "take it like a man" - no manhood vouchers will help you here. Shrug it off or give a clever comeback. C'mon, I know you can do ;)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
BoneSoft wrote:
Ask virtually any Japanese about that and they'll tell you that it was justified and it almost certainly saved lives.
You've got to be kidding me. Saved lives, maybe, but we dropped those bombs on civilian targets. The nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
The nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened.
Big fucking deal, it turned them into a nation of peace loving folk. And, just an fyi, there's still families that mourn for the losses at Pearl Harbor.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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They speak for you. If they are not prosecuting your agenda, that means you lose.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
that means you lose.
And what's your point? If I lose, so do you. Your image of the president as a man above the law, limited by nothing other than a congress's willingness (or unwillingness) to impeach him is a dangerous president - to you as well as me. He would be a president not unlike Al Capone in the 20's. If you really believe your own retoric about "leftists" then you should be terrified by the precedents being made by Bush. Your support of all of Bush's antics will only hasten the socialist utopia you so fear.
Stan Shannon wrote:
your agenda
My agenda? You really believe the rule of law is a partisan political agenda?
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oilFactotum wrote:
they are both illegal under US law as I stated
I've never heard of any law against them, which granted doesn't mean much, but sensory deprivation is done in every prison in the country every day. And sleep deprivation is on page 1 on the interrogation manual, sensory deprivation is on the cover. You may be right, and if so I'd like to know, but I have a hard time believing it. But I certainly wouldn't consider them torture, they're not harmed, have no permanent effects, and there's no chance of them dieing from it. If you want information from bad guys, and smacking them around isn't OK, what other option do you have? You do want information from bad guys don't you?
oilFactotum wrote:
BoneSoft wrote: Anybody with a child under 2 is subjected to that, constantly. No, they aren't. And like I said before, I can't believe you actually believe that.
Spend 3 - 4 hours in the dark every night with a baby on your shoulder. 4 hours of sleep every single day for months on end is pretty serious sleep deprivation. I think I'd rather be forced to stay awake for 3 or 4 days in a small empty room while being asked the same questions over and over again than go through that again. That would probably be healthier too.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I am curious about what you are doing in this thread. Last month you agreed that torture was illegal and ineffective. But now you think that these extreme coercive measures are how we should gather intelligence. What's the deal? http://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/View.aspx?fid=2605&msg=2298328[^]
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Stan Shannon wrote:
that means you lose.
And what's your point? If I lose, so do you. Your image of the president as a man above the law, limited by nothing other than a congress's willingness (or unwillingness) to impeach him is a dangerous president - to you as well as me. He would be a president not unlike Al Capone in the 20's. If you really believe your own retoric about "leftists" then you should be terrified by the precedents being made by Bush. Your support of all of Bush's antics will only hasten the socialist utopia you so fear.
Stan Shannon wrote:
your agenda
My agenda? You really believe the rule of law is a partisan political agenda?
oilFactotum wrote:
If I lose, so do you. Your image of the president as a man above the law, limited by nothing other than a congress's willingness (or unwillingness) to impeach him is a dangerous president - to you as well as me. He would be a president not unlike Al Capone in the 20's. If you really believe your own retoric about "leftists" then you should be terrified by the precedents being made by Bush. Your support of all of Bush's antics will only hasten the socialist utopia you so fear.
If our government is as badly broken as you must believe it to be to think as you do about Bush than he is precisely the kind of person I want to have running things. Why would I want to see that kind of flawed power handed over to the Marxist left as represented by Clinton, Obama or Edwards? For my part, I don't believe anything is broken at all. For the most part, things are working precisely as they should. A good leader knows when to push the envelope in order to fulfill his constitutional responsibilities - which includes far more than an obsequious subservience to every possible interepretation of the US legal code. The threat we face from radical Islam is far worse than anything Bush and company have done even if everthing you say is completely valid. If he as crossed lines he didn't need to, than he should be punished. But that does not mean that he was wrong.
oilFactotum wrote:
You really believe the rule of law is a partisan political agenda?
You're damned right I do.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/this-is-a-banan.html[^] "We live in a country where the government can detain indefinitely, torture in secret, and then secretly destroy the tapes of torture sessions to protect its own staff"
oilFactotum wrote:
"We live in a country where the government can detain indefinitely, torture in secret, and then secretly destroy the tapes of torture sessions to protect its own staff"
No, we live in a country where dumbass liberals can spew out their ignorance with wild abandon. In what country and what war have non-uniformed, enemy combatants taken prisoner on a battle field been given jury trials? We had several hundred thousand German soldiers as prisoners during WWII and only a handful got trials. And most of those were hanged. Is that the kind of trial they are looking for? And I thought Scooter Libby got into all sorts of hot water with the left for not remembering who publicized a CIA employee's name. And now these same people want videos of interrogations that may contain classified material? Does the CIA have a video lending library?
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oilFactotum wrote:
If I lose, so do you. Your image of the president as a man above the law, limited by nothing other than a congress's willingness (or unwillingness) to impeach him is a dangerous president - to you as well as me. He would be a president not unlike Al Capone in the 20's. If you really believe your own retoric about "leftists" then you should be terrified by the precedents being made by Bush. Your support of all of Bush's antics will only hasten the socialist utopia you so fear.
If our government is as badly broken as you must believe it to be to think as you do about Bush than he is precisely the kind of person I want to have running things. Why would I want to see that kind of flawed power handed over to the Marxist left as represented by Clinton, Obama or Edwards? For my part, I don't believe anything is broken at all. For the most part, things are working precisely as they should. A good leader knows when to push the envelope in order to fulfill his constitutional responsibilities - which includes far more than an obsequious subservience to every possible interepretation of the US legal code. The threat we face from radical Islam is far worse than anything Bush and company have done even if everthing you say is completely valid. If he as crossed lines he didn't need to, than he should be punished. But that does not mean that he was wrong.
oilFactotum wrote:
You really believe the rule of law is a partisan political agenda?
You're damned right I do.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Bush than he is precisely the kind of person I want to have running things.
But he's not going to be for very much longer and Clinton, Obama or Edwards may very well be the next president. So, your support and agreement that the president should be above the law, and break his oath to protect the constitution, will lead to the realization of you fear of a socialist distopia. You are actively participating in the destruction of everything you claim to believe in.
Stan Shannon wrote:
threat we face from radical Islam is far worse than anything Bush and company have done even if everthing you say is completely valid.
The only real and fundamental threat we face from radical Islam is that we will turn away from our constitution and our way of life and embrace the barbarism of those that oppose us. You are a disheartening example of that barbarism.
Stan Shannon wrote:
as crossed lines he didn't need to, than he should be punished. But that does not mean that he was wrong.
Well yes, that is exactly what it means. If he crossed the line, he is wrong.
Stan Shannon wrote:
You're damned right I do.
Then you clearly have no respect for the constitution or anything this country has ever stood for. I pity you.X|
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Bush than he is precisely the kind of person I want to have running things.
But he's not going to be for very much longer and Clinton, Obama or Edwards may very well be the next president. So, your support and agreement that the president should be above the law, and break his oath to protect the constitution, will lead to the realization of you fear of a socialist distopia. You are actively participating in the destruction of everything you claim to believe in.
Stan Shannon wrote:
threat we face from radical Islam is far worse than anything Bush and company have done even if everthing you say is completely valid.
The only real and fundamental threat we face from radical Islam is that we will turn away from our constitution and our way of life and embrace the barbarism of those that oppose us. You are a disheartening example of that barbarism.
Stan Shannon wrote:
as crossed lines he didn't need to, than he should be punished. But that does not mean that he was wrong.
Well yes, that is exactly what it means. If he crossed the line, he is wrong.
Stan Shannon wrote:
You're damned right I do.
Then you clearly have no respect for the constitution or anything this country has ever stood for. I pity you.X|
oilFactotum wrote:
Then you clearly have no respect for the constitution or anything this country has ever stood for
I sure as hell have no respect for any constitution someone like you would defend.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.