God, I hate VB. All I want for Christmas is for you to smite the retards responsible for its existence
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Come to think of it; what is VB implemented in? VB? Any compiler worth its salt is written in the language that it compiles... (C# is the notable exception?) Imagine if VB were open source and being maintained by VB programmers! :omg:
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Come to think of it; what is VB implemented in? VB? Any compiler worth its salt is written in the language that it compiles... (C# is the notable exception?)
I remember that argument coming up in college between the C/Unix and the VB/Win crowds. The answer turned out to be that VB 4/5 was an advanced OS script while real programmers wrote ANSI C in VI :-D
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it! I have seen some excellent and well written VB Programs
sulu wrote:
I have seen some excellent and well written VB Programs
Refuting this is not my point. If you take a skilled developer and tell them to write something in VB, they can apply their skills to a bad situation and usually pull an app out of the crapper. My point is that VB was never a language that was targeted at SKILLED developers. VB is a language that is targeted at...say, an accountant that knows how to write Excel macros and wants to come up with something to impress their manager. ...That's all fine and cool; IF IT STAYS THERE!!! ...when those people teach themselves VB and then consider themselves a "programmer" and slide into IT to screw systems up that someone like me has to go in and fix, there is DEFINITELY a problem. Like I said: "A skilled developer is a skilled developer is a skilled developer" ....taken further, "A skilled C++ developer is a skilled Java developer is a skilled VB developer" ...The language itself is irrelevant. You should be able to throw any language at a skilled developer and have them write proficiently....the architects at Microsoft tried their damnedest to break this fact when they formulated Visual Basic
sulu wrote:
The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it!
I nearly completely disagree with this stereotype. There is an undeniable presence of "brain dump certifications" that are handed out overseas, but I don't think that you can make the blanket statement that Indian, Russian, or Chinese developers are intrinsically less qualified, which I'm not sure you actually are saying...maybe you're just using heavy-handed statements
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Why is your post not titled "I hate dumb ass VB programmers"?
Because if you think that's what I was saying, you either are incapable of(or you simply posted before)reading my follow-up to my original post. I'll quote myself on this one:
Alaric_ wrote:
...btw, if you're a VB programmer and you think that I was insulting you or anything, then you misunderstood my intentions. ...My gripe is with the language and the reasoning behind the language....VB was designed to give "Non"programmers the ability to write quick, dirty desktop apps. I have a HUGE problem with VB being the language of choice in an enterprise setting, because most of the people that actually would say "Oh, I think we'll write this in VB. It does what we need to do" probably doesn't have the skill to make that decision. VB should never be used for anything other than "my app: I'm building it; I'm supporting it; It's running on my machine" Anything that is to actually be deployed to production should be written in a much more appropriate language because the GENERAL developer base for VB is absolute crap(a bunch of kiddie scripters that read a book and presto: qualified) ...and you end up with systems designed like the one that my snippets illustrate. Again, not insulting ALL VB programmers(A qualified programmer is a qualified programmer is a qualified programmer) ...I write VB(mostly against my will, but what are you gonna do when the system was written in this horrible language and an enhancement comes your way?) ....Gripe about it.....every chance you get. GOD I HATE VB!!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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God, I hate VB. All I want for Christmas is for you to smite the retards responsible for its existence....and if it pleases you, oh God: can you send some of the "Non"s with them? This was written in 2005 in a VB.NET project
GoTo Error_Trap
End TryMe.LBL\_status.Text = "" Else Me.DV\_Search.Visible = True Me.DV\_Results.Attributes("style") = "display:none" Me.LBL\_status.Text = "No Rows Returned." End If Exit SubError_Trap:
ShowError()...The "Business Logic", "Data Access" and "Presentation" layers are maintained not as separate projects inside a solution, but as FOLDERS!!! inside a single project. ...which results in a "hard-wired disgusting switch-boxed bastardization" of the layered pattern ...The mechanism that was chosen by our unqualified senior architect (who makes God knows how much a year) for accessing the database is to have the presentation layer do something like this:
Dim tbl As DataTable
tbl = Common.GetDataTable(SQLScripts.GetBaseEmpSql(UserID))rather than having stored procedures encapsulate the sql scripts, the choice was made to maintain them in code. (Granted, I obfuscated the schema name and each of the table names so that I could post)
Public Shared Function getSQL(ByVal aryPVIDs() As String) As String
'aryPVIDs must be an array of pvids
Dim sql, strSelect, strFrom, strWhere As String
Dim strPVIDs As StringstrPVIDs = Join(aryPVIDs, "','") strSelect = "Select p.ID, p.Ps\_Project\_NBr, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Project\_Desc\_txt, pt.Project\_type\_txt, p.project\_type\_cd, " & \_ " p.spread\_method\_cd, sm.spread\_method\_txt, p.project\_mgr\_id, pm.last\_nm||', '||pm.first\_nm ProjectMgrFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.asset\_mgr\_id, am.last\_nm||', '||am.first\_nm AssetMgrFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.lead\_eng\_id, le.last\_nm||', '||le.first\_nm LeadEngineerFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.start\_dt, p.revised\_start\_dt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.orig\_serv\_dt, p.revised\_serv\_dt, p.projected\_serv\_dt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.host\_flg, p.engineer\_group\_cd, eg.engineer\_group\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Trans\_region\_cd, tr.transmission\_region\_txt, p.comments\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Distr\_region\_cd, dr.distr\_region\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.project\_status\_cd, priority\_cd , archive\_flg, " & vbCrLf & \_ " ps.cpp, p.glbu, ps.ci\_status\_nbrSadly, it's not the retards writing the VB net compiler that want backwards compatibility. It's the retards using the old VB syntax that want it. I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap, would have been tied to a post, blindfolded, and asked what it wanted on its Tombstone.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
Sadly, it's not the retards writing the VB net compiler that want backwards compatibility. It's the retards using the old VB syntax that want it. I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap, would have been tied to a post, blindfolded, and asked what it wanted on its Tombstone.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap
"On Error Goto" was never a correct implementation of exception handling. I say that I hate "VB" because Visual Basic is the most popular incarnation of the BASIC language (in the current .NET flavor), but more accurately, I should have said that I despise BASIC ...does anyone that writes BASIC even know what it is??? It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. If you're a Beginner, writing BASIC is completely understandable. But you MUST realize that it is intended for use by non-programmers as a stepping stone to whatever language you go to after you are comfortable enough to step up
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Hey! I write good programs! :mad:
ROFLOLMFAO
Ri Qen-Sin wrote:
I write good programs!
I believe you... because you didn't say, "I write programs good!" :-D
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Does this remind anyone of the chicken or the egg problem? :laugh:
ROFLOLMFAO
Ri Qen-Sin wrote:
Does this remind anyone of the chicken or the egg problem?
Nope. There is bootstrapping[^]
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God, I hate VB. All I want for Christmas is for you to smite the retards responsible for its existence....and if it pleases you, oh God: can you send some of the "Non"s with them? This was written in 2005 in a VB.NET project
GoTo Error_Trap
End TryMe.LBL\_status.Text = "" Else Me.DV\_Search.Visible = True Me.DV\_Results.Attributes("style") = "display:none" Me.LBL\_status.Text = "No Rows Returned." End If Exit SubError_Trap:
ShowError()...The "Business Logic", "Data Access" and "Presentation" layers are maintained not as separate projects inside a solution, but as FOLDERS!!! inside a single project. ...which results in a "hard-wired disgusting switch-boxed bastardization" of the layered pattern ...The mechanism that was chosen by our unqualified senior architect (who makes God knows how much a year) for accessing the database is to have the presentation layer do something like this:
Dim tbl As DataTable
tbl = Common.GetDataTable(SQLScripts.GetBaseEmpSql(UserID))rather than having stored procedures encapsulate the sql scripts, the choice was made to maintain them in code. (Granted, I obfuscated the schema name and each of the table names so that I could post)
Public Shared Function getSQL(ByVal aryPVIDs() As String) As String
'aryPVIDs must be an array of pvids
Dim sql, strSelect, strFrom, strWhere As String
Dim strPVIDs As StringstrPVIDs = Join(aryPVIDs, "','") strSelect = "Select p.ID, p.Ps\_Project\_NBr, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Project\_Desc\_txt, pt.Project\_type\_txt, p.project\_type\_cd, " & \_ " p.spread\_method\_cd, sm.spread\_method\_txt, p.project\_mgr\_id, pm.last\_nm||', '||pm.first\_nm ProjectMgrFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.asset\_mgr\_id, am.last\_nm||', '||am.first\_nm AssetMgrFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.lead\_eng\_id, le.last\_nm||', '||le.first\_nm LeadEngineerFullName, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.start\_dt, p.revised\_start\_dt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.orig\_serv\_dt, p.revised\_serv\_dt, p.projected\_serv\_dt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.host\_flg, p.engineer\_group\_cd, eg.engineer\_group\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Trans\_region\_cd, tr.transmission\_region\_txt, p.comments\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.Distr\_region\_cd, dr.distr\_region\_txt, " & vbCrLf & \_ " p.project\_status\_cd, priority\_cd , archive\_flg, " & vbCrLf & \_ " ps.cpp, p.glbu, ps.ci\_status\_nbrThat is just plain hideous.
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Ray Cassick wrote:
language is syntacticly FINE. It is the idiots that USE it that you have problems with.
I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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I find it ironic that you are blasting VB, but in your messages on your profile you are using access. But in your defense that is some terrible code, where do you work and are they passing out salaries in the 200K range? I think I could move...
mr_lasseter wrote:
using access
That is just about as bad.
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Ray Cassick wrote:
language is syntacticly FINE. It is the idiots that USE it that you have problems with.
I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
Paul Conrad wrote:
I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.
I think I could make some reasonable disagreement with that. When I'm forced to use VB.NET, I think differently than when I'm using C#. The C# language can do things VB.NET can't; and while I do try hard to retain the clarity of work I do in C#, the language itself gets in the way. It's like being a highly skilled acrobat trying to walk down a straight hallway when all of the strangely shaped objects on the floor keep moving, trying to trip you. VB is those moving objects. The language itself seems designed to prevent clarity of thought.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
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Paul Conrad wrote:
I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.
I think I could make some reasonable disagreement with that. When I'm forced to use VB.NET, I think differently than when I'm using C#. The C# language can do things VB.NET can't; and while I do try hard to retain the clarity of work I do in C#, the language itself gets in the way. It's like being a highly skilled acrobat trying to walk down a straight hallway when all of the strangely shaped objects on the floor keep moving, trying to trip you. VB is those moving objects. The language itself seems designed to prevent clarity of thought.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
Patrick Sears wrote:
hard to retain the clarity of work I do in C#, the language itself gets in the way.
Can you give an example? Only problem I have is switching back to C# from VB.NET and forgetting ; sometimes.
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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I find it ironic that you are blasting VB, but in your messages on your profile you are using access. But in your defense that is some terrible code, where do you work and are they passing out salaries in the 200K range? I think I could move...
I know some VB. Where can I find the 200k jobs? :)
Florin Crisan
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Sadly, it's not the retards writing the VB net compiler that want backwards compatibility. It's the retards using the old VB syntax that want it. I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap, would have been tied to a post, blindfolded, and asked what it wanted on its Tombstone.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007I concur. Regardless of the language; when something is no longer useful, it should be deprecated, then removed. In the case of VB.NET, many things haven't even made it to deprecation, while others have been in the deprecated phase for years and versions upon versions. If you think about it, one of the absolute biggest problems that Microsoft deals with is supporting backwards compatibility. They just need to grow a pair and cut the old "features" off at the knees. Move on! We cannot ever expect to receive a truly greater product if it continues to support these old (and completely useless) ideas. The problem is, if they did move on and drop useless ideas, Microsoft would face a hailstorm from the "beginners" and the 61-year old original-COBOL programmer that just can NOT bring himself to learn something new.
Matt
(Find your own niche! This one's mine.) -
I concur. Regardless of the language; when something is no longer useful, it should be deprecated, then removed. In the case of VB.NET, many things haven't even made it to deprecation, while others have been in the deprecated phase for years and versions upon versions. If you think about it, one of the absolute biggest problems that Microsoft deals with is supporting backwards compatibility. They just need to grow a pair and cut the old "features" off at the knees. Move on! We cannot ever expect to receive a truly greater product if it continues to support these old (and completely useless) ideas. The problem is, if they did move on and drop useless ideas, Microsoft would face a hailstorm from the "beginners" and the 61-year old original-COBOL programmer that just can NOT bring himself to learn something new.
Matt
(Find your own niche! This one's mine.)They already did faced that garbage when they announced they were dropping support for VB6. A bunch of people really griped about it, including a bunch of MS MVPs that they just couldn't do that because there are a bunch of legacy apps out there they they still needed to support. I say fine, start phasing out support for your legacy apps and move up to VB.NET. I know it costs money, and a bunch of it, to rewrite apps in VB.NET. That's why there is a migration path where VB.NET supports the old stuff in VB6. Great. But now we're into the 4th generation of VB.NET. They just can't tell me that they wasted the last 7 years still developing new apps in VB6 instead of moving their code base to .NET. That's just plain lazy...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap
"On Error Goto" was never a correct implementation of exception handling. I say that I hate "VB" because Visual Basic is the most popular incarnation of the BASIC language (in the current .NET flavor), but more accurately, I should have said that I despise BASIC ...does anyone that writes BASIC even know what it is??? It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. If you're a Beginner, writing BASIC is completely understandable. But you MUST realize that it is intended for use by non-programmers as a stepping stone to whatever language you go to after you are comfortable enough to step up
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
[quote]It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.[/quote] The popularity of BASIC in the 1980's stemmed not from human ease of use, but rather from the ability to make a very compact editor/interpreter package. Some simple versions of BASIC are 4K or less. Indeed, the Atari 2600 implementation of BASIC includes a CodeView-style display (showing current execution point and the values of all variables), and has to implement its own font display handling (the hardware has none), keypad scanning logic, and even a crude screen-saver, and yet it still fits within 4K. Many of the horrible parts of vb6 syntax can be traced to Microsoft's original BASIC interpreter for the IBM PC more than 25 years ago. Using oddball invocation formats for graphics statements line line (x1,y1)-(x2,y2),color,bf is fine in an on-the-fly interpreted language, but is not a good approach in a compiled procedural or object-oriented language. Fortunately, the most horrible aspects of syntax were dropped in vb.net.
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[quote]It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.[/quote] The popularity of BASIC in the 1980's stemmed not from human ease of use, but rather from the ability to make a very compact editor/interpreter package. Some simple versions of BASIC are 4K or less. Indeed, the Atari 2600 implementation of BASIC includes a CodeView-style display (showing current execution point and the values of all variables), and has to implement its own font display handling (the hardware has none), keypad scanning logic, and even a crude screen-saver, and yet it still fits within 4K. Many of the horrible parts of vb6 syntax can be traced to Microsoft's original BASIC interpreter for the IBM PC more than 25 years ago. Using oddball invocation formats for graphics statements line line (x1,y1)-(x2,y2),color,bf is fine in an on-the-fly interpreted language, but is not a good approach in a compiled procedural or object-oriented language. Fortunately, the most horrible aspects of syntax were dropped in vb.net.
supercat9 wrote:
...The popularity of BASIC in the 1980's...
And we are 2 years from "the 80s" being 30 years old. I imagine there might be legacy embedded systems in existence that still require the ability to fit everything within 4K of storage, but I would retort with the idea that if you needed something with that light of a memory signature, the programmer should be working on their optimization skills with whatever assembly language targets said embedded system's processor. BASIC serves absolutely no *valid* purpose, WHATSOEVER as a programming language outside of academia. There is a stigma on the culture surrounding BASIC as being full of underqualified, improperly educated developers. I would tend to agree with this stigma on a general basis, but I would say that it is only the fault of the developer in the fact that they never "advanced" beyond the beginner stage. Most of the blame can be placed on the language itself. Example: Visual Basic supports optional parameters. I've heard developers complain that C# doesn't support optional parameters and think "oh...he/she's an ex VB programmer or a bad C++ programmer" Optional parameters promote horrid programming practices and completely belie a basic tenet of object-oriented programming (polymorphism) Optional parameters basically mode a method signature, which is a practice that has been laughed at for nearly 20 years as being a juvenile solution to any system outside of a state machine.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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[quote]It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.[/quote] The popularity of BASIC in the 1980's stemmed not from human ease of use, but rather from the ability to make a very compact editor/interpreter package. Some simple versions of BASIC are 4K or less. Indeed, the Atari 2600 implementation of BASIC includes a CodeView-style display (showing current execution point and the values of all variables), and has to implement its own font display handling (the hardware has none), keypad scanning logic, and even a crude screen-saver, and yet it still fits within 4K. Many of the horrible parts of vb6 syntax can be traced to Microsoft's original BASIC interpreter for the IBM PC more than 25 years ago. Using oddball invocation formats for graphics statements line line (x1,y1)-(x2,y2),color,bf is fine in an on-the-fly interpreted language, but is not a good approach in a compiled procedural or object-oriented language. Fortunately, the most horrible aspects of syntax were dropped in vb.net.
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The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it! I have seen some excellent and well written VB Programs
sulu wrote:
The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it!
And what nationality is responsible for raising a person with such a biased , ignorant viewpoint ? :mad:
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...btw, if you're a VB programmer and you think that I was insulting you or anything, then you misunderstood my intentions. ...My gripe is with the language and the reasoning behind the language....VB was designed to give "Non"programmers the ability to write quick, dirty desktop apps. I have a HUGE problem with VB being the language of choice in an enterprise setting, because most of the people that actually would say "Oh, I think we'll write this in VB. It does what we need to do" probably doesn't have the skill to make that decision. VB should never be used for anything other than "my app: I'm building it; I'm supporting it; It's running on my machine" Anything that is to actually be deployed to production should be written in a much more appropriate language because the GENERAL developer base for VB is absolute crap(a bunch of kiddie scripters that read a book and presto: qualified) ...and you end up with systems designed like the one that my snippets illustrate. Again, not insulting ALL VB programmers(A qualified programmer is a qualified programmer is a qualified programmer) ...I write VB(mostly against my will, but what are you gonna do when the system was written in this horrible language and an enhancement comes your way?) ....Gripe about it.....every chance you get. GOD I HATE VB!!!!!
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
I think you are being a tad unfair to VB here. The choice of language is mainly syntactical (I write and use both). The design of your system's architecture is nothing to do with VB per se, it's just bad design. I do conceed that there are lots of bad/indifferent programmers in VB - but are there more because it's easier to learn VB than C# and so you get more beginners and self-taught coders in VB than other languages.
'Howard