Tiger-Leaping vs Software-Testing [modified]
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The Google query (( TATIANA Marian Roth-Cramer )) fetches the one tiger-story with the significant piece of information. San Francisco Chronicle article quote from Marian: "All of a sudden, I saw the tiger leap over the moat, put a paw on the dirt (and hang on). I screamed and grabbed my son." This quote contradicts all the other articles, if you read the whole thing it claims that the zoo-staff had been informed that it was known that the tiger could routinely go so far as to get a paw on the dirt(and hang on) on top of the customer-side of the wall. What *I* would love to see would be a "controlled extreme taunting test" by trained professional-tiger-taunters e.g. with raw-meat-bait etc., how far can a MOTIVATED tiger leap. The small delta between "paw on the dirt(and hang on)" and full escape contradicts the other claims that there was plenty of safety-margin. It would be funny to watch video of motivated tigers routinely vaulting such walls. ( By analogy to the way software must be security-tested today, vs motivated hackers, that is to say, beyond testing against mere random errors. )
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:57:41 PM
At Dreamworld on the Gold Coast they have a Siberian Tiger "Show". I have video of a White Tiger leaping 20 feet UP a tree to get a bait (and the Tiger was a large male - certainly heavier than Tatiana! These animals are capable of amazing feats when motivated.
The Cool Code is Inside the Box
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At Dreamworld on the Gold Coast they have a Siberian Tiger "Show". I have video of a White Tiger leaping 20 feet UP a tree to get a bait (and the Tiger was a large male - certainly heavier than Tatiana! These animals are capable of amazing feats when motivated.
The Cool Code is Inside the Box
>> I have video of a White Tiger leaping 20 feet UP a tree .. large male - certainly heavier than Tatiana << Thanks ! For sure *I* didn't know that, and apparently neither did The Authorities. The latest is articles titled (( "Zoo director says tiger wall was low" )) -- "the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, the minimum recommended height for tiger exhibit walls is 16.4 feet" -- San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel A. Mollinedo...On Wednesday, Mollinedo said that the wall was 18 feet high and that the moat around the tiger's pen was 20 feet wide. On Thursday, he said the moat was 33 feet wide. -- The director of the zoo where a teenager was killed by an escaped tiger acknowledged Thursday that the wall around the animal's pen was just 12 1/2 feet high Code-project-topic-wise, I maintain this is a nice numerical example which would go nicely with numerous scenarios as to how something happens on-the-front-lines, and by the time it percolates up to the Chief, the message is not the same !
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:36:17 PM
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Why? To protect idiots who are clearly Darwin Award Candidates. I think it's quite fitting that Tiger-taunters become tiger fodder.
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>> I have video of a White Tiger leaping 20 feet UP a tree .. large male - certainly heavier than Tatiana << Thanks ! For sure *I* didn't know that, and apparently neither did The Authorities. The latest is articles titled (( "Zoo director says tiger wall was low" )) -- "the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, the minimum recommended height for tiger exhibit walls is 16.4 feet" -- San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel A. Mollinedo...On Wednesday, Mollinedo said that the wall was 18 feet high and that the moat around the tiger's pen was 20 feet wide. On Thursday, he said the moat was 33 feet wide. -- The director of the zoo where a teenager was killed by an escaped tiger acknowledged Thursday that the wall around the animal's pen was just 12 1/2 feet high Code-project-topic-wise, I maintain this is a nice numerical example which would go nicely with numerous scenarios as to how something happens on-the-front-lines, and by the time it percolates up to the Chief, the message is not the same !
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:36:17 PM
Try this with a group of friends - Whisper a sentence to the person next to you. They then whisper the message to the person next to them and so on. Guaranteed that you dont get the same message whispered to you when the "Communique" has gone full circle. An oldie but a true reflection of how we pass on information orally. This scenario is used in many organisations to highlight the importance of detail in oral communication. On a practical note, I always assume that the authorities' estimate of acceptable risk is approximately 1/3 of my estimate of the acceptable personal risk. (Although teenagers work with the exact opposite view.) :-D
The Cool Code is Inside the Box
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Try this with a group of friends - Whisper a sentence to the person next to you. They then whisper the message to the person next to them and so on. Guaranteed that you dont get the same message whispered to you when the "Communique" has gone full circle. An oldie but a true reflection of how we pass on information orally. This scenario is used in many organisations to highlight the importance of detail in oral communication. On a practical note, I always assume that the authorities' estimate of acceptable risk is approximately 1/3 of my estimate of the acceptable personal risk. (Although teenagers work with the exact opposite view.) :-D
The Cool Code is Inside the Box
>> "estimate of acceptable risk...teenagers work with the exact opposite view" << Implicit, is that you are using your higher-order-brain-functions to take "calculated risk". I have a small collection of "Emotional IQ" books, in this case the most relevant one is Gonzales's "Deep Survival". The latest Amazon review of this remarks "survival is...keeping your head when everyone else is losing theirs" and while that's a fair precis of the book's focus, it goes into amazing depth on this issue. Like you say, teenage-peer-pressure, blah, no way were they in their higher-order-consciousness !
pg--az
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>> I have video of a White Tiger leaping 20 feet UP a tree .. large male - certainly heavier than Tatiana << Thanks ! For sure *I* didn't know that, and apparently neither did The Authorities. The latest is articles titled (( "Zoo director says tiger wall was low" )) -- "the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, the minimum recommended height for tiger exhibit walls is 16.4 feet" -- San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel A. Mollinedo...On Wednesday, Mollinedo said that the wall was 18 feet high and that the moat around the tiger's pen was 20 feet wide. On Thursday, he said the moat was 33 feet wide. -- The director of the zoo where a teenager was killed by an escaped tiger acknowledged Thursday that the wall around the animal's pen was just 12 1/2 feet high Code-project-topic-wise, I maintain this is a nice numerical example which would go nicely with numerous scenarios as to how something happens on-the-front-lines, and by the time it percolates up to the Chief, the message is not the same !
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 5:36:17 PM
To be fair, would you be willing to go in with a foot rule, to check the facts?
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
To be fair, would you be willing to go in with a foot rule, to check the facts?
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
The Google query (( TATIANA Marian Roth-Cramer )) fetches the one tiger-story with the significant piece of information. San Francisco Chronicle article quote from Marian: "All of a sudden, I saw the tiger leap over the moat, put a paw on the dirt (and hang on). I screamed and grabbed my son." This quote contradicts all the other articles, if you read the whole thing it claims that the zoo-staff had been informed that it was known that the tiger could routinely go so far as to get a paw on the dirt(and hang on) on top of the customer-side of the wall. What *I* would love to see would be a "controlled extreme taunting test" by trained professional-tiger-taunters e.g. with raw-meat-bait etc., how far can a MOTIVATED tiger leap. The small delta between "paw on the dirt(and hang on)" and full escape contradicts the other claims that there was plenty of safety-margin. It would be funny to watch video of motivated tigers routinely vaulting such walls. ( By analogy to the way software must be security-tested today, vs motivated hackers, that is to say, beyond testing against mere random errors. )
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:57:41 PM
Kind of a sad story. I'm not a PETA person but I think animals are pretty cool and that's sad. We put her in the cage and we punish her for being wild. Go figure... :rose:
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Kind of a sad story. I'm not a PETA person but I think animals are pretty cool and that's sad. We put her in the cage and we punish her for being wild. Go figure... :rose:
Too true. :sigh: Had a story here in Oz about an animal handler who died in the elephant enclosure at a country circus. Seems that the bloke died from a heart attack but the conventional wisdom (without direct eye-witness evidence)is that the elephant caused the heart attack? - Wouldnt stand up in a court of law but I dont like the Elephant's chances...:~ Go the elephants, Siberian Tigers, Whales, Fruit Flies,... :-D
The Cool Code is Inside the Box
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The Google query (( TATIANA Marian Roth-Cramer )) fetches the one tiger-story with the significant piece of information. San Francisco Chronicle article quote from Marian: "All of a sudden, I saw the tiger leap over the moat, put a paw on the dirt (and hang on). I screamed and grabbed my son." This quote contradicts all the other articles, if you read the whole thing it claims that the zoo-staff had been informed that it was known that the tiger could routinely go so far as to get a paw on the dirt(and hang on) on top of the customer-side of the wall. What *I* would love to see would be a "controlled extreme taunting test" by trained professional-tiger-taunters e.g. with raw-meat-bait etc., how far can a MOTIVATED tiger leap. The small delta between "paw on the dirt(and hang on)" and full escape contradicts the other claims that there was plenty of safety-margin. It would be funny to watch video of motivated tigers routinely vaulting such walls. ( By analogy to the way software must be security-tested today, vs motivated hackers, that is to say, beyond testing against mere random errors. )
pg--az
modified on Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:57:41 PM
The wall was too low. It should have been four feet higher. People are so stupid sometimes it amazes me. I wonder how the ass hole that made a wall four feet lower than it should have been feels right now. Whoever made that decision should be in jail for negligent homicide. http://www.philly.com/philly/health_and_science/20071228_Zoo_says_tiger_wall_4_feet_lower_than_advised.html[^]
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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To be fair, would you be willing to go in with a foot rule, to check the facts?
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist>> a foot rule, to check the facts << A really nice graphic, showing 13' center, 12.5' corner, can be found at the Google query (( woolfolk mercury tiger )), but mercurynews has nice short links too http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_7827401[^] The world has evidently not picked up on Marian Roth-Cramer, who is doubtless fuming. Some time ago, she saw "the tiger leap over the moat, put a paw on the dirt (and hang on)", in-your-face evidence that "you have no safety margin". She remarked on this to the zookeeper who happened nearby, who said "She always does that". "She wrote a letter to David Anderson, the zoo director at the time, about the incident and canceled her membership. She said she never got a reply." Only after the actual escape did the rulers come out, a very cheap check which in-your-dreams might have been ordered by the zookeeper or the director's mail-filtering-staff.
pg--az
modified on Friday, December 28, 2007 3:17:24 PM
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>> a foot rule, to check the facts << A really nice graphic, showing 13' center, 12.5' corner, can be found at the Google query (( woolfolk mercury tiger )), but mercurynews has nice short links too http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_7827401[^] The world has evidently not picked up on Marian Roth-Cramer, who is doubtless fuming. Some time ago, she saw "the tiger leap over the moat, put a paw on the dirt (and hang on)", in-your-face evidence that "you have no safety margin". She remarked on this to the zookeeper who happened nearby, who said "She always does that". "She wrote a letter to David Anderson, the zoo director at the time, about the incident and canceled her membership. She said she never got a reply." Only after the actual escape did the rulers come out, a very cheap check which in-your-dreams might have been ordered by the zookeeper or the director's mail-filtering-staff.
pg--az
modified on Friday, December 28, 2007 3:17:24 PM
To be fair, that wasn't clear to me from your original post - and a google query isn#t as global as oyu imagine it should be. Anyway, I was just joking. *I* wouldn't go in there (she wasn't their only tiger, right?)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Why? To protect idiots who are clearly Darwin Award Candidates. I think it's quite fitting that Tiger-taunters become tiger fodder.
Rob Graham wrote:
I think it's quite fitting that Tiger-taunters become tiger fodder.
It's just too bad the tiger had to pay for their stupidity as well. :sigh:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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To be fair, that wasn't clear to me from your original post - and a google query isn#t as global as oyu imagine it should be. Anyway, I was just joking. *I* wouldn't go in there (she wasn't their only tiger, right?)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist>> wasn't clear to me from your original post .. just joking << Conceded the full implications took a while to sink in. That is likely the reason CNN etc have not parroted that article quoting Marian. During the lawsuit to be painted as idiot-negligent spells BIG Bucks, they dare not risk their reputation spreading such explosive hearsay. >> *I* wouldn't go in there << How about (( Laser surveying Nikon )), no need to "go in there" these days. What makes this such a great scenario is the number of visitors. Statistically there MUST have been other visitors as knowledgeable as Andy_L_J. I venture that during the "discovery" phase of the lawsuit, exactly similar psychology will be found, compared to the "O-Ring" issue on the Space Shuttle. The Shuttle ALSO had little safety margin (on cold days), but management Dismissed It Till It Failed.
pg--az
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The wall was too low. It should have been four feet higher. People are so stupid sometimes it amazes me. I wonder how the ass hole that made a wall four feet lower than it should have been feels right now. Whoever made that decision should be in jail for negligent homicide. http://www.philly.com/philly/health_and_science/20071228_Zoo_says_tiger_wall_4_feet_lower_than_advised.html[^]
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
>> The wall was too low. << The AZA should have consulted Andy_L_J. Not only too low, but for a DRY moat, to have the moat 33 feet wide would seem to render it ineffective. Even house-cats I think are born with the ghetto-technique of "running up a wall/tree". They get up momentum, take that initial leap off the ground, and then the forward momentum creates traction when they hit the wall/tree. It would be SO hilarious to have professionals dangle bait in the customer area of that zoo, and have ALL the remaining tigers able to easily vault out in this way, why doesn't Sergei Brin fund that test, it's his backyard. **TO ICE THE CAKE** The truth will likely never be known due to the "78 year old zoo". Imagine chatting with the ARCHITECT of the (33 foot, 12.5 foot) moat. Imagine the architect exclaiming 'I DESIGNED the moat to be WET. *OBVIOUSLY* if you cut costs and don't fill it the animals can get a running start !" This would fittingly complete the analogy to software testing !
pg--az
modified on Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:44:19 AM
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The wall was too low. It should have been four feet higher. People are so stupid sometimes it amazes me. I wonder how the ass hole that made a wall four feet lower than it should have been feels right now. Whoever made that decision should be in jail for negligent homicide. http://www.philly.com/philly/health_and_science/20071228_Zoo_says_tiger_wall_4_feet_lower_than_advised.html[^]
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
People are so stupid sometimes it amazes me.
Yes, you do. The cat house at the SF Zoo was built in the late 1930s and opened in 1940. I suspect in those days there were no standards. And as the article states, the group setting the standard says that it's only a guideline and the enclosure could have been considered safe with the lower wall. In fact, they'd not flagged it on previous inspections. It's not like tigers were leaping over it in the over 60 years it's been there.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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>> The wall was too low. << The AZA should have consulted Andy_L_J. Not only too low, but for a DRY moat, to have the moat 33 feet wide would seem to render it ineffective. Even house-cats I think are born with the ghetto-technique of "running up a wall/tree". They get up momentum, take that initial leap off the ground, and then the forward momentum creates traction when they hit the wall/tree. It would be SO hilarious to have professionals dangle bait in the customer area of that zoo, and have ALL the remaining tigers able to easily vault out in this way, why doesn't Sergei Brin fund that test, it's his backyard. **TO ICE THE CAKE** The truth will likely never be known due to the "78 year old zoo". Imagine chatting with the ARCHITECT of the (33 foot, 12.5 foot) moat. Imagine the architect exclaiming 'I DESIGNED the moat to be WET. *OBVIOUSLY* if you cut costs and don't fill it the animals can get a running start !" This would fittingly complete the analogy to software testing !
pg--az
modified on Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:44:19 AM
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Amazing how all the armchair quarterbacks show up around the water cooler on Monday morning. :doh:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
In this case it MATTERS Did the-acting-director-at-the-time personally discard Marian's warning ? Did some faceless mail-filtering-staffer discard the warning ? Along the same lines, for a few possibly precious seconds, the zoo staff at the cafe discounted the dude's claim that he had been bitten by a tiger - they did call 911, but the police dispatcher noted "the zoo thinks they are 800 (crazy)" . I won't go into my personal reasons for obsessing on chain-of-command failure, but I do hope that the subject has redeeming value beyond my personal obsession. Today for $0.66 used, Amazon marketplace will sell you a copy of "About Face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior" by Colonel David Hackworth. I have a tape flag on page 773 "I'd climbed to the highest rung of the ladder only to find the ladder was leaning against the wrong wall." Too lengthy to quote are his more detailed personal observations on chain-of-command failure which fill in such general abstractions. For example having just come back from the front-lines in Vietnam, he was dumbfounded to realize the extent to which golfing-buddyship at the country club was one of the most important things at the "top" levels of "leadership". The common theme between Hackworth and the Zoo is that beyond what Garrett Hardin calls "The Hutterite Limit" of about 150 people, societies do so tend to fall into this trap of an out-of-touch-yet-in-control leadership. NTSB-like, it is worth studying failure-scenarios in such cases.
pg--az
modified on Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:07:07 PM
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In this case it MATTERS Did the-acting-director-at-the-time personally discard Marian's warning ? Did some faceless mail-filtering-staffer discard the warning ? Along the same lines, for a few possibly precious seconds, the zoo staff at the cafe discounted the dude's claim that he had been bitten by a tiger - they did call 911, but the police dispatcher noted "the zoo thinks they are 800 (crazy)" . I won't go into my personal reasons for obsessing on chain-of-command failure, but I do hope that the subject has redeeming value beyond my personal obsession. Today for $0.66 used, Amazon marketplace will sell you a copy of "About Face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior" by Colonel David Hackworth. I have a tape flag on page 773 "I'd climbed to the highest rung of the ladder only to find the ladder was leaning against the wrong wall." Too lengthy to quote are his more detailed personal observations on chain-of-command failure which fill in such general abstractions. For example having just come back from the front-lines in Vietnam, he was dumbfounded to realize the extent to which golfing-buddyship at the country club was one of the most important things at the "top" levels of "leadership". The common theme between Hackworth and the Zoo is that beyond what Garrett Hardin calls "The Hutterite Limit" of about 150 people, societies do so tend to fall into this trap of an out-of-touch-yet-in-control leadership. NTSB-like, it is worth studying failure-scenarios in such cases.
pg--az
modified on Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:07:07 PM
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pg--az wrote:
I won't go into my personal reasons for obsessing
So you're basically a conspiracy nut. 'Nuf said. :doh:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
>> So you're basically a conspiracy nut. 'Nuf said. << No, no, don't label me '800' too ! To browse further along the bookshelf, for example I like Systemantics "A fail safe system fails by failing to fail safe" Systemantics would cost you $1.99 used from Amazon Marketplace, classier, huh ? Also you might enjoy (( dobson kind word )) which summons up mirrors of Terry Dobson's classic "A Kind Word Turneth Away Wrath", about an encounter during his macho white-Aikido-student-in-Tokyo days. Although I have neither bought nor read this one, William Ury has released "The Power of a Positive No: How to Say No and Still Get to Yes". Which brings up the subject of BATNA, which I always associate with the Japanese game of "GO", you signal that you are satisfied with your position by making NO MOVE in response to your adversary's move, although you retain the right to move if after placing enough stones HIS position becomes worth noticing. In this case the word 'nut' phrased dismissively, U got my goat.
pg--az