Should accountants learn TSQL and VBA?
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One of our accountants is leaving and he has been using Transact SQL and VBA(Excel) for reporting purposes. He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves. I have been doing follow-up training with the FD in basic VBA. My concern is that both of these people in accounts have no experience in programming/development etc and are on a very steep learning curve. I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts. On several occasions I had to correct the TSQL of the accountant who is leaving. So my concern is that: .1) He is over-confident in his programming skills. .2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time. .3) Time spent learning TSQL and VBA will be time taken away from other important accounting work – particularly in the case of the FD. My role in the business is senior developer/DBA so I feel secure in my position, i.e. no fear of losing my job, and don’t want to spend time correcting spaghetti code – only over my dead body will they get update/insert/delete permissions. So here are the questions Is it usual for accounts departments to learn these sorts of skills? Am I being a control freak? I want the opinion of the wider community, so your opinions are appreciated in this area. Thanks Guy
You always pass failure on the way to success.
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One of our accountants is leaving and he has been using Transact SQL and VBA(Excel) for reporting purposes. He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves. I have been doing follow-up training with the FD in basic VBA. My concern is that both of these people in accounts have no experience in programming/development etc and are on a very steep learning curve. I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts. On several occasions I had to correct the TSQL of the accountant who is leaving. So my concern is that: .1) He is over-confident in his programming skills. .2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time. .3) Time spent learning TSQL and VBA will be time taken away from other important accounting work – particularly in the case of the FD. My role in the business is senior developer/DBA so I feel secure in my position, i.e. no fear of losing my job, and don’t want to spend time correcting spaghetti code – only over my dead body will they get update/insert/delete permissions. So here are the questions Is it usual for accounts departments to learn these sorts of skills? Am I being a control freak? I want the opinion of the wider community, so your opinions are appreciated in this area. Thanks Guy
You always pass failure on the way to success.
You are definitely correct. VB, VBA, Excel, Access, etc. are dangerous in the wrong hands. (And yet they're marketed to those very same wrong hands.) A year ago I inherited a quagmire of Excel files to maintain. I've kvetched about it here before so I won't do so today. Suffice it to say, I doubt what you're up against is worse than what I had to deal with this past year. Put data in a database, use custom applications to access and maintain it. Every time, no exceptions.
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Accountants should be expected to understand programming concepts to the same level that you are required to learn accounting concepts. Tim
No, certainly not to the same level.
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One of our accountants is leaving and he has been using Transact SQL and VBA(Excel) for reporting purposes. He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves. I have been doing follow-up training with the FD in basic VBA. My concern is that both of these people in accounts have no experience in programming/development etc and are on a very steep learning curve. I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts. On several occasions I had to correct the TSQL of the accountant who is leaving. So my concern is that: .1) He is over-confident in his programming skills. .2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time. .3) Time spent learning TSQL and VBA will be time taken away from other important accounting work – particularly in the case of the FD. My role in the business is senior developer/DBA so I feel secure in my position, i.e. no fear of losing my job, and don’t want to spend time correcting spaghetti code – only over my dead body will they get update/insert/delete permissions. So here are the questions Is it usual for accounts departments to learn these sorts of skills? Am I being a control freak? I want the opinion of the wider community, so your opinions are appreciated in this area. Thanks Guy
You always pass failure on the way to success.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts.
Therein lies the problem. First, how well does IT and the accountants communicate? Second, you may think it odd that the accountants learn TSQL and VBA, but did it occur to you that for the IT team to do their job well, they need to learn something about accounting? [edit]Third (almost forgot), how responsive is the IT team to the accountants needs? Is this maverick accountant simply reacting to an adversarial relationship with IT?[/edit] One of the biggest problems that nobody recognizes regarding software development is that most of it is cross-discipline work, on both sides of the fence. The only workable solution that I've found is when there is at least one person, preferably several, that are skilled in at least two of the disciplines needed in the job. All too often, companies fail to recognize the importance of this "resource" bridge. Who is the this bridge between accounting expertise and IT expertise in your company? If you don't have one, get one or become one. Marc
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts.
Therein lies the problem. First, how well does IT and the accountants communicate? Second, you may think it odd that the accountants learn TSQL and VBA, but did it occur to you that for the IT team to do their job well, they need to learn something about accounting? [edit]Third (almost forgot), how responsive is the IT team to the accountants needs? Is this maverick accountant simply reacting to an adversarial relationship with IT?[/edit] One of the biggest problems that nobody recognizes regarding software development is that most of it is cross-discipline work, on both sides of the fence. The only workable solution that I've found is when there is at least one person, preferably several, that are skilled in at least two of the disciplines needed in the job. All too often, companies fail to recognize the importance of this "resource" bridge. Who is the this bridge between accounting expertise and IT expertise in your company? If you don't have one, get one or become one. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
First, how well does IT and the accountants communicate?
On amicable terms. I have known and worked with the FD for some 12 years. There is a good level of trust present between both of us.
Marc Clifton wrote:
but did it occur to you that for the IT team to do their job well, they need to learn something about accounting?
Very good point - I have to and do understand debtors/creditors/stock ledgers in order to be able to support and develop our systems.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Is this maverick accountant simply reacting to an adversarial relationship with IT?
Originally he was part of the IT team being an accountant who was familiar with some accounting software. He left the IT team to join the Accounts team and carried over his interest in IT. As a consequence he developed spreadsheets and TSQL reports for the team. With him leaving he is saying that others in his team need to know how to maintain those reports. In terms of his work style he very much worked on his own, rarely collaborating. My contact with him regarding TSQL tended to be when he told me there was "something wrong with the data" - I would then look at his TSQL and correct that which strangely enough corrected the data as well :laugh: Unfortunately maverick is probably the correct term as he has poor analysis skills leading to him being overly-optimistic regarding the ease with which IT projects can be completed. He has saved me from having to write the reports though - so there is a positive side.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Who is the this bridge between accounting expertise and IT expertise in your company?
That'l be me. Having worked my way up from the shop floor I have worked in pretty much every department - this has stood me in very good stead. My concern is that TSQL and VBA is not just about learning to code - which in itself is no small matter. But in order to be able to put that knowledge to good use one has to have a good understanding of the underlying data structures / business model(from an IT perspective) etc. This having been said all thes responses have been very helpful - I will change my perspective and steer more towards getting the appropriate people trained and ensure that I can support and supervise them where necessary.
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One of our accountants is leaving and he has been using Transact SQL and VBA(Excel) for reporting purposes. He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves. I have been doing follow-up training with the FD in basic VBA. My concern is that both of these people in accounts have no experience in programming/development etc and are on a very steep learning curve. I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts. On several occasions I had to correct the TSQL of the accountant who is leaving. So my concern is that: .1) He is over-confident in his programming skills. .2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time. .3) Time spent learning TSQL and VBA will be time taken away from other important accounting work – particularly in the case of the FD. My role in the business is senior developer/DBA so I feel secure in my position, i.e. no fear of losing my job, and don’t want to spend time correcting spaghetti code – only over my dead body will they get update/insert/delete permissions. So here are the questions Is it usual for accounts departments to learn these sorts of skills? Am I being a control freak? I want the opinion of the wider community, so your opinions are appreciated in this area. Thanks Guy
You always pass failure on the way to success.
Yeah all that is normal. I say let them do it but make them fix it. That's what we did in all the shops I worked at. It was easy to justify to their management team. A simple, "Do you want your people to spend time doing a poor job that we have to fix?" or do you want them to take the time to do it right so everyone benefits? In every case the management team told the aspiring financial team to take the time to learn it all the way. If it was something they truly wanted to do and there was a good business case for them doing it then they needed to do it right in order to preserve expectations of quality and sustainability across the departments.
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts.
Therein lies the problem. First, how well does IT and the accountants communicate? Second, you may think it odd that the accountants learn TSQL and VBA, but did it occur to you that for the IT team to do their job well, they need to learn something about accounting? [edit]Third (almost forgot), how responsive is the IT team to the accountants needs? Is this maverick accountant simply reacting to an adversarial relationship with IT?[/edit] One of the biggest problems that nobody recognizes regarding software development is that most of it is cross-discipline work, on both sides of the fence. The only workable solution that I've found is when there is at least one person, preferably several, that are skilled in at least two of the disciplines needed in the job. All too often, companies fail to recognize the importance of this "resource" bridge. Who is the this bridge between accounting expertise and IT expertise in your company? If you don't have one, get one or become one. Marc
Very well put Marc. I guess I was trying to make the same points in my long winded post. The key I see is that IT, accounting, and other departments need to work together as a whole. If the company is lucky enough to have someone that can cross multiple areas, they need to realize the value of that person. IT does not need to automatically assume that accountants don't know enough to write their own code and mini applications and accountants need to realize that there are some IT individuals that understand their data enough to give them what they need. Unfortunately most of the time, these two groups are more worried about who is stepping on their "area" of the business. As I previously stated, accountants should not be forced to learn TSQL or VBA if they do not want to. While I think it is wise to learn, the opportunity should be taken to realize this application is obviously needed and if resources permit, IT should volunteer to take the reins and develop it properly if not done so.
Jeremy Oldham
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One of our accountants is leaving and he has been using Transact SQL and VBA(Excel) for reporting purposes. He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves. I have been doing follow-up training with the FD in basic VBA. My concern is that both of these people in accounts have no experience in programming/development etc and are on a very steep learning curve. I partly believe that it should be the IT team that takes on this area of work and that the accounts team should be concentrating more on accounts. On several occasions I had to correct the TSQL of the accountant who is leaving. So my concern is that: .1) He is over-confident in his programming skills. .2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time. .3) Time spent learning TSQL and VBA will be time taken away from other important accounting work – particularly in the case of the FD. My role in the business is senior developer/DBA so I feel secure in my position, i.e. no fear of losing my job, and don’t want to spend time correcting spaghetti code – only over my dead body will they get update/insert/delete permissions. So here are the questions Is it usual for accounts departments to learn these sorts of skills? Am I being a control freak? I want the opinion of the wider community, so your opinions are appreciated in this area. Thanks Guy
You always pass failure on the way to success.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves.
hehe, I guess I will weigh in now. Others have said some of the things I would have said, but I think a few are important enough to repeat. I am actually from accounting. My votech certification is in Business Accounting with programming. I learned Basic, COBOL, and RPG-II. Accounting is not unknown to programming topics, but usually take the simpler concepts since the goal is not to build fancy programs, but add accounts to ledger and balance sheets and generate new reports and new data-entry models. The latter and prediction in accounting are usually advanced topics saved for the programming literate. I jumped ship from accounting in 1990 after only 4 years. These days the simpler topics in programming for rudimentary skills would probably be considered SQL and VBA, so I have no problem with accountants getting the knowledge to help them with their work. Less work on your shoulders and more understanding all around. The hardest time I had was from those computer illiterate that had no knowledge that adding a line to balance sheet was less difficult than writing a complete W2 reporting system for the IRS or an automated bank reconciliation system. More computer and programming literacy the better in my books.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
- He is over-confident in his programming skills.
This is a separate issue and a problem within itself. It has nothing to do with learning programming and is a problem in all areas. He probably suffers from this in the Accounting area as well. You simply don't have enough skills in that area to recognize he is more bluster than skill there as well. I look at this as a personal problem of his, and should be treated as such. It does not mean that all accountants will be over-confident in their skills, it just means he is most likely a jerk. ;)
GuyThiebaut wrote:
.2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time.
I think you are both doing a little of this. You are under-estimating what they are incapable of doing, and he is over-estimating what they are capable of doing based on a reference example of him. Give them the chance to learn, this isn't worth fighting for. He may find out someone cannot pic
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Wait until they realise how much trouble they're in then ride to the rescue? *Elaine plays theme from "Blazing Saddles" :)
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
Wait until they realise how much trouble they're in then ride to the rescue? *Elaine plays theme from "Blazing Saddles"
I like that. Better than the theme tune from M.A.S.H which is what I have been rehearsing :laugh:
You always pass failure on the way to success.
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
He has organised for the financial director and another accountant to learn VBA and TSQL so that they can take on his work when he leaves.
hehe, I guess I will weigh in now. Others have said some of the things I would have said, but I think a few are important enough to repeat. I am actually from accounting. My votech certification is in Business Accounting with programming. I learned Basic, COBOL, and RPG-II. Accounting is not unknown to programming topics, but usually take the simpler concepts since the goal is not to build fancy programs, but add accounts to ledger and balance sheets and generate new reports and new data-entry models. The latter and prediction in accounting are usually advanced topics saved for the programming literate. I jumped ship from accounting in 1990 after only 4 years. These days the simpler topics in programming for rudimentary skills would probably be considered SQL and VBA, so I have no problem with accountants getting the knowledge to help them with their work. Less work on your shoulders and more understanding all around. The hardest time I had was from those computer illiterate that had no knowledge that adding a line to balance sheet was less difficult than writing a complete W2 reporting system for the IRS or an automated bank reconciliation system. More computer and programming literacy the better in my books.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
- He is over-confident in his programming skills.
This is a separate issue and a problem within itself. It has nothing to do with learning programming and is a problem in all areas. He probably suffers from this in the Accounting area as well. You simply don't have enough skills in that area to recognize he is more bluster than skill there as well. I look at this as a personal problem of his, and should be treated as such. It does not mean that all accountants will be over-confident in their skills, it just means he is most likely a jerk. ;)
GuyThiebaut wrote:
.2) Due to point 1 he over estimates what the other accountants will be capable of in a short time.
I think you are both doing a little of this. You are under-estimating what they are incapable of doing, and he is over-estimating what they are capable of doing based on a reference example of him. Give them the chance to learn, this isn't worth fighting for. He may find out someone cannot pic
El Corazon wrote:
Don't judge the others by the example of this one.
Good point. So far my training with the FD has shown that she doesn't want to be a programmer - she wants to learn quick and dirty solutions rather than beautiful code :) So she is less ambitious but competent all the same.
You always pass failure on the way to success.
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Very well put Marc. I guess I was trying to make the same points in my long winded post. The key I see is that IT, accounting, and other departments need to work together as a whole. If the company is lucky enough to have someone that can cross multiple areas, they need to realize the value of that person. IT does not need to automatically assume that accountants don't know enough to write their own code and mini applications and accountants need to realize that there are some IT individuals that understand their data enough to give them what they need. Unfortunately most of the time, these two groups are more worried about who is stepping on their "area" of the business. As I previously stated, accountants should not be forced to learn TSQL or VBA if they do not want to. While I think it is wise to learn, the opportunity should be taken to realize this application is obviously needed and if resources permit, IT should volunteer to take the reins and develop it properly if not done so.
Jeremy Oldham
Jeremy Oldham wrote:
Unfortunately most of the time, these two groups are more worried about who is stepping on their "area" of the business.
Yep - I definitely see myself doing this at times. Although in all fairness most of the time it is out of concern rather than rigidly holding on to power. Sometimes though I just want the power Mwahahahaha (twisting my moustache in an evil manner)
You always pass failure on the way to success.