There is no such thing as time
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Isn't that rephrasing exactly what Marc stated?
Yes, except Chris is a scientist and understands this a lot deeper than most of us and the thought Marc is having has been had before and led to Time being defined. Not defined as you define a variable but defined as in describing something in our heads to make sense of something outside of our heads. "Time" is a label for something we have observed. It would exist whether we labeled it or not.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote:
Watson's law: As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
I thought this was something most people think about for awhile, along the lines of "How the bejeezus did we get here?" When I had this thought I thought I was onto something but then realised I was just relabeling. Time will exist in its form ("state change", 4th dimension, whatever) whether we label it or not. An alien race may call it something else, possibly equating it to some religious manifestation of the universe ("the universe lives through time and as god is life so time is god"). We didn't invent time, we just coined it, gave what we observed a name. So as Chris says, you are right but heck, lets just call it time at the end of the day :)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote:
Watson's law: As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
>the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes Well then that's TIME! Your argument merely re-defines time. You've simply said that time doesn't exist in the units of measure we use today (i.e. no seconds, days, years etc); you're simply saying it's a measure of the changes in state that particles undergo. Which is spot on, because changes in state are a process - time is therefore a measure of those processes! Therefore time exists - you just don't wanna call it time. Elementary my dear Marc :-)
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
This argument has come up a lot in "amateur" philosophical discussions. We amateurs are the real philosophers, not those dumbasses like Freud or Jung. Anyhow, my friend and I have been discussing this idea for some time. As he is a philosophy major, he's going to be doing his senior thesis on this idea next fall. I'm always pleased to find this idea brought forth by a new person. Congrats, Marc, you've just joined yet another circle of enlightened beings. How many does that make for you now?
There is no knowledge that is not power. - Mortal Kombat
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Imagine a closed system, where the objects inside it change their states (position, temperature, etc). We describe the state changes that take place by relating to the notion of time, like for example speed = d(distance) / d(time) (d - differential). Now, one can think that no state changes happen in this system, then the notion of time is irrelevant, as there are no state changes, thus no way to notice passage of time. But I ask you: is it possible to have such a system where absolutely nothing changes? The answer is NO. There are some things which can never be stopped like the Brownian movement or the electrons revolving around the nuclei of atoms. In theory, these can also be 'frozen' in a system where the temperature is ABSOLUTE ZERO (-273.15 C IIRC), but then again it has been proven that absolute zero is unreachable in practice. So, time exists! Good mental gymnastics, though. Have you seen the movie 'What the #$^@ do we know?' It's a part-fiction part-documentary dealing with quantum physics, philosophy and bio-chemistry.
blackjack2150 wrote:
In theory, these can also be 'frozen' in a system where the temperature is ABSOLUTE ZERO (-273.15 C IIRC), but then again it has been proven that absolute zero is unreachable in practice.
You're right, ABSOLUTE ZERO can't be achieved, but a former Physics 101 lab student of mine got within a millionth of a degree: http://govexec.com/features/1006sam/1006samS2.htm[^] By the way, that article is not just not PR - he really IS a nice guy!
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
That's pretty close to what I think too. For me (as a brain), brains are symbol manipulators which use massive multiprocessing (at the neuron level). Symbols and Time are parts of the (my) brain's strategy for reducing complexity. "Time" is the user thread - otherwise called "conciousness"... ;) James
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
i agree, theres not such a thing as time, u cant take time from some place and move it to another, u cannot stop time, u cannot make time go backwards, time is the name we have given to a concept, our way to measure how many events have happened between... other events. time is measured now using atomic clocks, some scientist discovered that some atomic nuclei undergo some changes periodically in a stable form, precision comes to mind, 10^-9 seconds per day... so imo, time, if it were to be inluded into any formula, it should be handled with care, because its a concept that never goes backward, cant be exchanged, cannot be stopped, simply flows whether u want, belive, or anything, its a shame the scientific community its swamped into relativistic bullshit, time dilation, the twin brothers paradox, seems to me that some human especimens still feel the need to hold into the chance of the magical or mystical man beeing a possibility, and dont start with the e=mc2 'magic' as some of us always knew that its the kinetic energy formula to which someone just exchanged velocity with the speed of light anyway, this is not easy matter (xD) and the web is full or controversial opinions and flames. take care, regards jan
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
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i agree, theres not such a thing as time, u cant take time from some place and move it to another, u cannot stop time, u cannot make time go backwards, time is the name we have given to a concept, our way to measure how many events have happened between... other events. time is measured now using atomic clocks, some scientist discovered that some atomic nuclei undergo some changes periodically in a stable form, precision comes to mind, 10^-9 seconds per day... so imo, time, if it were to be inluded into any formula, it should be handled with care, because its a concept that never goes backward, cant be exchanged, cannot be stopped, simply flows whether u want, belive, or anything, its a shame the scientific community its swamped into relativistic bullshit, time dilation, the twin brothers paradox, seems to me that some human especimens still feel the need to hold into the chance of the magical or mystical man beeing a possibility, and dont start with the e=mc2 'magic' as some of us always knew that its the kinetic energy formula to which someone just exchanged velocity with the speed of light anyway, this is not easy matter (xD) and the web is full or controversial opinions and flames. take care, regards jan
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
In this dimension time does exist, it is cyclical, so seasons change, animals age, plants wither, dinaursaus become extinct, sun rises and sets, project life cycle etc. all these are relative to time. However only in this dimension. Therefore you can only prove time does not exist or even suggest this, from within a dimension that has no notion of time eg Heaven. :-D
Me
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Agreed. time is a human measument to explain why the sun shines and sets. simple. how long do I have to do this work before the sun goes down and I cannot see without help. Much like numbering codes of line. it all works, until there is a bug. simple way to point to a number to solve the problem. :doh:
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Hey bro. You been writing too many FPGA logic equations. I deny the universe is on a discreet digital master clock that can be descried by Mealy-Moore diagrams. further more... you are obviously one "of those" digital types. You know the type, "analog is not my religion, it's my antireligion". You people believe that everything and every event occurs on a digital scale and can be measured on a digital scale as long as the granularity of the measurement is fine enough. bahhh... The world is analog, you people need to get use to it. :)
MrPlankton
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
If you try to explain that time doesn't exist and you have to use the words "time is.." to explain that idea, then stop right there. That's a dead give away that you are wrong.
"Half this game is ninety percent mental." - Yogi Berra If you can read thank a teacher, if you can read in English, thank a Marine.
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
You all sure are wasting alot of "time" discussing this :)
Happy programming!
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In this dimension time does exist, it is cyclical, so seasons change, animals age, plants wither, dinaursaus become extinct, sun rises and sets, project life cycle etc. all these are relative to time. However only in this dimension. Therefore you can only prove time does not exist or even suggest this, from within a dimension that has no notion of time eg Heaven. :-D
Me
first u have to give some proof that another dimesions exist at all, u see, this is the place when ppl mix maths and physics, maths can make anything you want to, your only limit will be your imagination and of course maths itself, but physics arent maths u cant just cruch some numbers are tell everyone that this or that exist just because your maths say so, u will have to prove it and if you try and fail your maths could still be right, so no dimesions please, keep your feet on earth regards jan
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If you try to explain that time doesn't exist and you have to use the words "time is.." to explain that idea, then stop right there. That's a dead give away that you are wrong.
"Half this game is ninety percent mental." - Yogi Berra If you can read thank a teacher, if you can read in English, thank a Marine.
Brent Lamborn wrote:
If you try to explain that time doesn't exist and you have to use the words "time is.." to explain that idea, then stop right there. That's a dead give away that you are wrong.
Oh good. Proof that heaven exists because I have word for it. :) Marc
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You all sure are wasting alot of "time" discussing this :)
Happy programming!
AspDotNetDvlpr wrote:
You all sure are wasting alot of "time" discussing this
hehe. It sure is a conversation starter! Next time I'm with a group of drunk physicists and philosophers, I'll know what to bring up. :-D Marc
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ricmil42 wrote:
To stop everything from happening at once.
No THAT is the best counterargument to my theory that I've heard so far. :-D Marc
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Brent Lamborn wrote:
If you try to explain that time doesn't exist and you have to use the words "time is.." to explain that idea, then stop right there. That's a dead give away that you are wrong.
Oh good. Proof that heaven exists because I have word for it. :) Marc
Ok yeah. I only took one Metaphysics class in college. ;P But hey, if time didn't exists then how is it possible that we have real physical mechanical devices capable of consistently measuring time? If time is only a subjective concept then why does it always take me 40 mintues to get to work in the morning? Why does it never take 40 days? Anything that consistent must be real, no?
"Half this game is ninety percent mental." - Yogi Berra If you can read thank a teacher, if you can read in English, thank a Marine.
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Ok yeah. I only took one Metaphysics class in college. ;P But hey, if time didn't exists then how is it possible that we have real physical mechanical devices capable of consistently measuring time? If time is only a subjective concept then why does it always take me 40 mintues to get to work in the morning? Why does it never take 40 days? Anything that consistent must be real, no?
"Half this game is ninety percent mental." - Yogi Berra If you can read thank a teacher, if you can read in English, thank a Marine.
Brent Lamborn wrote:
Anything that consistent must be real, no?
Like the sun rising and setting consistently every day means that in reality the sun goes around the earth? :)
Brent Lamborn wrote:
if time didn't exists then how is it possible that we have real physical mechanical devices capable of consistently measuring time?
A good question that I haven't totally figured out yet--the big flaw in my theory, hahaha. But, in essence, any mechanical or electronic device is merely changing state by the forces applied on it. The fact that we perceive a clock ticking and call this the passage of time is our subjectivity coming into play, whereas in the objective realm, nothing has occurred except that the clock has changed state.
Brent Lamborn wrote:
If time is only a subjective concept then why does it always take me 40 mintues to get to work in the morning? Why does it never take 40 days?
Because all those forces that change your state from "at home" to "at work" are being applied consistently for the most part each time you make that state transition. So your subjective perception of that transition is nearly always "40 minutes". ;P Marc