EU launches new Microsoft probes
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Getting rid of IE is a good idea, if people were given a real choice nobody would use it. However, I don't think they go far enough. They need to ban the secret restrictions that MS imposes on OEMs to prevent them from installing alternative browsers.
There are no secret restrictions barring alternative browsers. I've purchased many a computer over the years (hundreds, for customers and employers), and roughly half of them, at one point in time or another, came with an alternative browser (usually Netscape at the time, but i've seen some ship with Mozilla and Firefox more recently, even some with Opera). This "urban myth" started by some poor reporting back during the anti-trust trial. It came to light that Microsoft canceled Compaq's license, because they removed IE's icon from the system, and replaced it with the Netscape icon. The headlines read something like "Compaq's license revoked for shipping Navigator". The fact is, Compaq was allowed to ship Navigator, even on the desktop. They just weren't allowed to remove the IE icon while doing so. This quickly mutated into thousands of people making the claim that Microsoft didn't allow OEM's to ship alternative browsers.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Tell me, how would they download these browsers without a browser? Ftp? Lol. Right.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
ummmmm read the post i wrote before answering please ;)
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Bloody ridiculous.
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors. And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
Andre Buenger wrote:
And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
Which means, a large portion of that 90% wouldn't have discovered the web had Microsoft not bundled a browser with Windows. Netscape's competitors would have complained had they included Netscape. So they made IE and included that. Also, what do you propose, that Microsoft remove IE? Because if they did, what would people use to download a browser? Or do you propose that Microsoft installs Opera? You don't think then that Firefox, Safari, Konqueror, Lynx and of course Netscape would sue Operacrosoft?
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Personally I like the fact that IE is bundled with the OS – you can browse the web “out of the box”. Secondly IE is componentised and many applications make use of the browsers engine to implement their application's UI. Next people will be complaining that Firefox is free!
Steve
IE does make a really good "UI toolkit" in a lot of cases.
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ummmmm read the post i wrote before answering please ;)
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
I did read your post. You didn't make any mention of HOW such a download would occur. You just said "it wouldn't be hard". I say that's a short sighted comment.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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I did read your post. You didn't make any mention of HOW such a download would occur. You just said "it wouldn't be hard". I say that's a short sighted comment.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
ummmm i thought you were a programmer? but you can't figure out how to write a small app that ftp's a file down and runs the installer? was it the vb forums i saw you in? :rolleyes:
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
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ummmm i thought you were a programmer? but you can't figure out how to write a small app that ftp's a file down and runs the installer? was it the vb forums i saw you in? :rolleyes:
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
Yeah, that must be it. Cause program files never change their locations on servers that aren't controlled by the software vendor. That means that after about 6 months, the links will become invalid and the user will have to browse around to find the most recent links. And what does that require? A browser. Like I said, it was a very short sighted statement. Why are so few technical people willing to think more than one step ahead?
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Yeah, that must be it. Cause program files never change their locations on servers that aren't controlled by the software vendor. That means that after about 6 months, the links will become invalid and the user will have to browse around to find the most recent links. And what does that require? A browser. Like I said, it was a very short sighted statement. Why are so few technical people willing to think more than one step ahead?
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
however you want it ... i have better ways to spend the next few hours of my life than arguing about pointless topics with you here ... you have your opinion and i mine ... period
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
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however you want it ... i have better ways to spend the next few hours of my life than arguing about pointless topics with you here ... you have your opinion and i mine ... period
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
Even I have mine :D
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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There are no secret restrictions barring alternative browsers. I've purchased many a computer over the years (hundreds, for customers and employers), and roughly half of them, at one point in time or another, came with an alternative browser (usually Netscape at the time, but i've seen some ship with Mozilla and Firefox more recently, even some with Opera). This "urban myth" started by some poor reporting back during the anti-trust trial. It came to light that Microsoft canceled Compaq's license, because they removed IE's icon from the system, and replaced it with the Netscape icon. The headlines read something like "Compaq's license revoked for shipping Navigator". The fact is, Compaq was allowed to ship Navigator, even on the desktop. They just weren't allowed to remove the IE icon while doing so. This quickly mutated into thousands of people making the claim that Microsoft didn't allow OEM's to ship alternative browsers.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
OEMs aren't prevented from installing 3rd party software, but discount license is structured in such a way that installing a non approved application will result in less support, or less marketing funds. Why is flash and adobe reader pre-installed on new PCs, but yet Firefox isn't? The only explaination is a restrive agreement. There is no law preventing MS from doing this. The previous US anti-trust case expired in 2006.
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IE does make a really good "UI toolkit" in a lot of cases.
I couldn't agree more. As a desktop application programmer, it's a damn good thing to have IE installed.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
When the EU Commission needs more cash, it uses the law to steal money from companies. Since Microsoft has a lot of cash, Microsoft is an easy target for bureaucrats to increase their paychecks. Bureaucrats assume a God-like attitude toward citizens and the private sector, seeing themselves as representing “good” and fighting against “evil.” The irony is bureaucrats face no competition and have no idea about software quality. Their decisions are based on vested interests, including their selfish need for power and money.
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
So what? If they're guilty of breaking european competition rules, then they'll just have to pay the fine, or leave. Neither side wants Microsoft to leave, so the only option left is to play by the rules. Also, this isn't a verdict. They're probing!
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Frankly, Bill ought to just buy the damned EU outright and shut them up permanently.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]It'd be way cheaper and easier if Microsoft would play by the rules...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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When the EU Commission needs more cash, it uses the law to steal money from companies. Since Microsoft has a lot of cash, Microsoft is an easy target for bureaucrats to increase their paychecks. Bureaucrats assume a God-like attitude toward citizens and the private sector, seeing themselves as representing “good” and fighting against “evil.” The irony is bureaucrats face no competition and have no idea about software quality. Their decisions are based on vested interests, including their selfish need for power and money.
danmorin wrote:
it usse the law to steal money from companies
Nah, they'll just raise the membership fee.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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When the EU Commission needs more cash, it uses the law to steal money from companies. Since Microsoft has a lot of cash, Microsoft is an easy target for bureaucrats to increase their paychecks. Bureaucrats assume a God-like attitude toward citizens and the private sector, seeing themselves as representing “good” and fighting against “evil.” The irony is bureaucrats face no competition and have no idea about software quality. Their decisions are based on vested interests, including their selfish need for power and money.
I agree.
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So what? If they're guilty of breaking european competition rules, then they'll just have to pay the fine, or leave. Neither side wants Microsoft to leave, so the only option left is to play by the rules. Also, this isn't a verdict. They're probing!
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Also, this isn't a verdict. They're probing!
Yeah, I know. But they have a track record...
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It would probably be funnier if MS refused to sell anything in the EU. Imagine the chaos that would follow as everyone clammored to find replacements for all the tools they are used to using. And yes, I too downloaded Firefox using good old IE.
Pualee wrote:
It would probably be funnier if MS refused to sell anything in the EU. Imagine the chaos that would follow as everyone clammored to find replacements for all the tools they are used to using.
And imagine the smugness when they (eventually) found new ways of working without MS products and MS lost a sizeable chunk of their revenue. MS have perhaps lost sight of the old adage: the customer is always right.
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
Yeah - Euopeans have a unique version of the spirit of competition. They were banning all inports of GMO corn, soybeans, etc., that is, until their labs caught up with their own GMO products. Sure, Micro$oft is anti-competitive, but then, by definition, every business is. How often does Airbus recommend you purchase a Boeing jet because it's more fuel efficient and doesn't require you rebuild your airports? French subsidies of their farmers are legandary (in the US, it's the biggest welfare system). The real anti-competitive beast to be wary of is the hydra known as the EU !
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol -
Andre Buenger wrote:
I don't really like WMP but I was too lazy so far to figure out which one is better.
And so your justifying your self proclaimed laziness by blaming it on Microsoft for bundling WMP?
Andre Buenger wrote:
Today Windows comes with WMP and IE, in the next version they bundle it with Office for an extra $200 (just hypothetically).
Microsoft would never bundle a cash cow like Office with Windows. Design for, absolutely, but bundle with? That would be insane. First, they're on two different product cycles (two years for Office if I'm not mistaken, three to five years per OS version last I checked), and second, if they did bundle it with Windows, then all down-level Windows operating systems users would be forced to update to the latest Windows to get the latest Office. And the users and corporations would never go for that. Here's my point. User/system security and privacy aside, NO government should be telling a commercial enterprise how to design their software or what to include in it as "bundled". The only reason governments do is because of competitors and very loud alternative OS users (who by your own number for desktop market share are in the minority). Why is that right? Justify it to me please. Because unless you can come up with a seriously compelling reason that truly involves compromised world security or the loss human life, it's not. And even the loss of life isn't always a compelling reason because look at what car and motorcycle companies are allowed to create and market for street driving!
Mike Poz
Mike Poz wrote:
Microsoft would never bundle a cash cow like Office with Windows. Design for, absolutely, but bundle with? That would be insane. First, they're on two different product cycles (two years for Office if I'm not mistaken, three to five years per OS version last I checked), and second, if they did bundle it with Windows, then all down-level Windows operating systems users would be forced to update to the latest Windows to get the latest Office. And the users and corporations would never go for that.
Historically both were on 2-3 year cycles (the windows one being complicated when they had both 9x and NT builds), but longer recently. Office went from 03 to 08, and unless you count the media center editions (03 and 05) there was a 5 year gap on the consumer OS from XP to Vista. Ditto on server03 to server08.
Otherwise [Microsoft is] toast in the long term no matter how much money they've got. They would be already if the Linux community didn't have it's head so firmly up it's own command line buffer that it looks like taking 15 years to find the desktop. -- Matthew Faithfull