32-bit or 64-bit Windows?
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Vivek Rajan wrote:
Visual Studio (all versions) are 32-bit apps. They run on Vista 64 in the WOW (Windows32 on Windows64). So Visual Studio can address only 2GB (or 3GB max), even though the OS and other native 64 bit apps can address 64 bits.
..... I know. It was a joke. Whoosh! :)
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
Ok, now I look stupid :) I just found this out yesterday, to my utter surprise ! Does VS run faster under WOW, or we better off just cross developing on a 32-bit box ?
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How is Visual Studio's performance and stability on 64-bit Vista ?
Well in the short time that we were using 64-bit Windows, Visual Studio 2005 seemed to work well enough. (Our problem was with the WinCE Platform Builder environment...)
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Ok, now I look stupid :) I just found this out yesterday, to my utter surprise ! Does VS run faster under WOW, or we better off just cross developing on a 32-bit box ?
Vivek Rajan wrote:
Does VS run faster under WOW
On that question, I have absolutely no idea. A few guys here do run VS on 64-bit windows, so you might ask them.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
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Go 64 bit - pretty much the only thing that doesn't work and hasn't been converted are HP drivers...just think how fast a machine is without HP drivers :-)
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
That should be fantastic. :)
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->Rajesh<-·´¯`·. Codeproject.com: Visual C++ MVP
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If you need any DOS or 16-bit Windows applications, don't upgrade. The 64-bit mode in the processor doesn't include the virtual 8086 submode required to run these old apps. You can use the dosbox emulator for DOS applications but 16-bit Windows is right out. There might be some slight benefits in general system performance as the parameter passing model is more efficient (in registers rather than on the stack, at least until you hit a varargs function) and the exception handling model is much lower cost for code that doesn't hit an exception, being table-based rather than stack-based (x86 code has to push an exception handling frame onto the stack and update the pointer at fs:[0] when it enters a try block; x64 code doesn't do anything, the exception handling code looks up the address the fault occurred at in a table to work out if there is a handler and how to unwind the stack). Reportedly the server version of Windows after the forthcoming Server 2008 will be 64-bit only, so it's probably a reasonable idea to get a head-start. I put Vista x64 on my Dell Latitude D820 laptop and it's not bad at all, but there are several devices which don't have drivers. Chief annoyance is the touchpad/strick driver which I can't turn off the click functionality and it keeps randomly clicking all over the place (about four times it's moved the cursor while I've been typing this message). Under 32-bit XP I had it set to turn off the touchpad and stick when an external mouse was plugged in.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
Mike Dimmick wrote:
If you need any DOS or 16-bit Windows applications, don't upgrade.
That why you also install Virtual PC. I've got CivII running in a Win2K VM. :)
...cmk The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying. - John Carmack
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I know with the 64-bit version you can use more than 3gb of RAM, but are there any other tangible benefits on a system primarily used for development (specifically, running VS2005/2008)? I'm running an Opteron 185 system with 2gb of RAM, but I might upgrade to a quad core despite the impending 2012 end-of-the-world event...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I switched over to 64bit several years ago. First running Win2003 Srv x64 and now WinXP Pro x64. I don't have any driver or app issues. Originally i went to x64 to ease into porting my code to x64. That didn't take much and now i compile/test all my code for both x86 and x64. I haven't noticed any sig diff in performance. For me the only reason is so i can compile and test x64 builds.
...cmk The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying. - John Carmack
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I know with the 64-bit version you can use more than 3gb of RAM, but are there any other tangible benefits on a system primarily used for development (specifically, running VS2005/2008)? I'm running an Opteron 185 system with 2gb of RAM, but I might upgrade to a quad core despite the impending 2012 end-of-the-world event...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001The details are forgotten, but with C++ compiled to native x64 code, I remember getting a Really Nice call stack that I was able to browse back up through, using the vc2005 debugger. This was due to the excellence of the way exceptions work in x64. SO, if you are writing C++ and suspect that say memory is getting corrupted, you might debug faster under x64. Also, thinking way ahead, x64 discourages the "routine" use of exceptions, that is reportedly they are more expensive to process when they actually do occur. So if maybe some stuff not written by you is say using exceptions to do normal processing flow, you would need an x64 system to notice that was bogging things down.
pg--az
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Visual Studio (all versions) are 32-bit apps. They run on Vista 64 in the WOW (Windows32 on Windows64). So Visual Studio can address only 2GB (or 3GB max), even though the OS and other native 64 bit apps can address 64 bits.
This is a good article on running 64bit vista with 3+ Gb Ram & 32-bit apps.... [click^]
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I believe on a 64 bit OS you can host 32 bit VPCs, but on a 32 bit machine you cannot host 64 bit VPCs. The only time I tried to install 64 bit OS turned out to be a disastrous failure and since then I have never attempted to install it.
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Using VMWare Virtual Server (free of charge) you can run 64b guest OS on 32b host OS. Of course you have to have 64b processor (I have Athlon 64 in S939 and it works fine). Of course you can't avoid memory limit this way. http://www.vmware.com/products/server/[^]
-- Best Regards, Jarek Andrzejewski
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I know with the 64-bit version you can use more than 3gb of RAM, but are there any other tangible benefits on a system primarily used for development (specifically, running VS2005/2008)? I'm running an Opteron 185 system with 2gb of RAM, but I might upgrade to a quad core despite the impending 2012 end-of-the-world event...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I have a Vista Business 64 and a whole array of trouble: it is not very tolerant when it comes to drivers. If you think about an upgrade you better check the support page for the hardware you think of. And do not think of :-) buying 'last-version-top-of-the-hill' hardware, since there are little chances to have from the very beginning vista 64 drivers. The 64 version is design for stability, so it is more suitable for a production environment, where you mostly do critical security updates for OS. In a development environment you may try to install new development tools, and you can run into trouble with your 64 version. Eg: Adobe Flash Player does not have a 64 version. On linux you are doomed, on Vista I eventually found a hack, so now it does not annoy me every time I visit a site relying on flash player. Summing up: - If the hardware is not on the market now, don't by 64 'just in case'. - If you software environment is subject to frequently change, don't by 64 because it is 'cool'
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Ok, now I look stupid :) I just found this out yesterday, to my utter surprise ! Does VS run faster under WOW, or we better off just cross developing on a 32-bit box ?
I noticed no difference between running it on XP Pro 32bit and XP Pro 64bit on the same computer, which doesn't mean that there is no difference, just that I didn't notice it But one would think that I would have noticed it if the difference was big enough to matter
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I believe on a 64 bit OS you can host 32 bit VPCs, but on a 32 bit machine you cannot host 64 bit VPCs. The only time I tried to install 64 bit OS turned out to be a disastrous failure and since then I have never attempted to install it.
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
I believe on a 64 bit OS you can host 32 bit VPCs, but on a 32 bit machine you cannot host 64 bit VPCs. The only time I tried to install 64 bit OS turned out to be a disastrous failure and since then I have never attempted to install it.
You can run a 32bit machine, and a 64bit virtual machine. You need to set the virtualization setting in the bios to on, and use VMWare Server. VMWare server is the only virtual machine application that can run 64bit applications. We are doing this at work currently so I know it works. Dell PC we are using.
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
I believe on a 64 bit OS you can host 32 bit VPCs, but on a 32 bit machine you cannot host 64 bit VPCs. The only time I tried to install 64 bit OS turned out to be a disastrous failure and since then I have never attempted to install it.
You can run a 32bit machine, and a 64bit virtual machine. You need to set the virtualization setting in the bios to on, and use VMWare Server. VMWare server is the only virtual machine application that can run 64bit applications. We are doing this at work currently so I know it works. Dell PC we are using.
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First things first, it depends on what you're planning on doing and secondly are we talking Vista or XP here? I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. I'm only using Vista x64 on my desktop and it's pretty much the only OS that I use at the moment. I have got to say though that on my setup Vista (whether this is just the x64 edition or not) does run faster than XP did (in the things that matter anyway such as responsiveness). I am using VS2008 at the moment although on my previous trial of Vista did have VS2005 running side-by-side with the Orcas Beta, make sure that before you attempt anything with VS2005 though install SP1 and SP1 for Vista. Running IIS7 and SQL 2005 Express as well in the background. Am doing C#, Windows Forms, WPF and ASP.NET development, the odd bit of C++ stuff quite happily on it. Specs for my machine are sufficient for me: AMD Athlon X2 3800+ 2GB DDR2-6400 nVidia 8800GTS 320MB 1x120GB E-IDE for OS 1x500GB SATA II for data 1x500GB USB / IDE for backups Have been very tempted to double my RAM up but what with spending £1550 on a second gun will hold off for the moment since the RAM is not essential. What I suggest if at all possible is to get a second hard drive and try out the x64 edition first, I ran mine for 90days (the maximum allowed under the Vista trial) and had a few kinks to iron out with the drivers but all were fixed pretty sharpish. In fact most things just ran out of the box, I do remember having to download the drivers for the MoBo on a seperate computer and transfer them because the disc that came didn't have x64 drivers on it and therefore couldn't use the ethernet port to download the drivers. I don't know whether it has any effect but perhaps by having a top-end graphics card Vista can offload some of it's workload to the card rather than hogging the processor. One thing I have noticed is that Vista is faster to boot than XP (with all the same antivirus etc) however recently it takes much longer but that's because I haven't been rebooting it very frequently (last time was at least 2 weeks ago) and thus when it has to reboot it usually has to install updates etc. So in summary, for me, running the x64 version of Vista has been nothing but joy (much prefer it to XP, even the start menu makes it completely worthwhile). Currently the only issue I have is with my wirel
> I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. Says who? First time I hear this. I use XP x64 on my primary machine at home (used for dev/games/whatever I can throw at it), and I think it kicks ass. Given a choice between XP x86, XP x64, and Vista (any flavor), I'll choose XP x64 every single time. I think it's the best Windows version short of using Server 2003 for a dev OS. I can't think of any single piece of hardware I own that doesn't have proper drivers. Well, maybe some ancient video cards, but if I really have to use such old hardware, it'll be used in another box anyway and I'll carry on with my life instead of antagonizing over such things.
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> I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. Says who? First time I hear this. I use XP x64 on my primary machine at home (used for dev/games/whatever I can throw at it), and I think it kicks ass. Given a choice between XP x86, XP x64, and Vista (any flavor), I'll choose XP x64 every single time. I think it's the best Windows version short of using Server 2003 for a dev OS. I can't think of any single piece of hardware I own that doesn't have proper drivers. Well, maybe some ancient video cards, but if I really have to use such old hardware, it'll be used in another box anyway and I'll carry on with my life instead of antagonizing over such things.
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I know with the 64-bit version you can use more than 3gb of RAM, but are there any other tangible benefits on a system primarily used for development (specifically, running VS2005/2008)? I'm running an Opteron 185 system with 2gb of RAM, but I might upgrade to a quad core despite the impending 2012 end-of-the-world event...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I've maxed out my hardware with 8GB and quad core (lowly Q6600 but 4 cores all the same) - now I have each dev environment in a Virtual machine (I am using VMWare Server free version) and the hosting OS is Win 2003 Server 64bit. I stuck to XP 32bit as guest OS - giving each VM one core and 1GB mem - VMWare seems to work well like that - each VM seems to hit the single core so it gets best out of the 4 cores if you have more than 1 VM running at a time - it seems quite happy with 3 or 4 running at the same time. This is working really well so far - the good things are: 1. No more MS issues where you install newer version of IDE and it breaks something in the old (I had 2005 broke the help in 2003 etc) 2. No more leaving old dev envs installed to support those older bit of code you only work on now and again - just turn off the VM's for the older dev env's only powering them up if needed 3. Setup my VM's on a IcyBox caddy that takes a 2.5" SATA disk and has a slot for 3.5" bay that is SATA but pop the disk out of that slot and it becomes a USB or eSATA external drive - popped in a 250GB WD disk and now I can get full SATA disk speed on the desktop but still run all my VM's on the notebook when I am out and about (though it is a bit slower on the notebook) 4. Upgrading PC in the future - no need to reinstall all the dev env's you may or may not need - just copy the VM's over to the new box My Win2k3 host is a real minimal install - nice and fast. Bad things are: 1. MS's stupid method of delivering updates and there petty closing down of AutoPatcher - this means I end up having to install updates many times - I am thinking of making the "mothership" an update server to deal with this 2. MS's stupid activation rubbish - initially whenever I ran the VM's on the notebook it wanted to reactivate as it saw a CPU type change - I have since managed to avoid this by carefully configuring the VM's so that the "change count" is not exceeded when moved from desktop to notebook (or back again)
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I believe on a 64 bit OS you can host 32 bit VPCs, but on a 32 bit machine you cannot host 64 bit VPCs. The only time I tried to install 64 bit OS turned out to be a disastrous failure and since then I have never attempted to install it.
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
on xp it is very very big difference between 32bit and 64bit, xp 64bit runs much faster than 32bit on vista i found that 64bit is faster but not so much like the difference on xp, but, it's better to use 64bit, because you'll be safer from viruses, i even used 64bit without anti-virus for months, and never got infected, and i think that everyone knows how computers perform without antiviruses!!!
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> I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. Says who? First time I hear this. I use XP x64 on my primary machine at home (used for dev/games/whatever I can throw at it), and I think it kicks ass. Given a choice between XP x86, XP x64, and Vista (any flavor), I'll choose XP x64 every single time. I think it's the best Windows version short of using Server 2003 for a dev OS. I can't think of any single piece of hardware I own that doesn't have proper drivers. Well, maybe some ancient video cards, but if I really have to use such old hardware, it'll be used in another box anyway and I'll carry on with my life instead of antagonizing over such things.
Daniel Desormeaux wrote:
> I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. Says who? First time I hear this. I use XP x64 on my primary machine at home (used for dev/games/whatever I can throw at it), and I think it kicks ass. Given a choice between XP x86, XP x64, and Vista (any flavor), I'll choose XP x64 every single time. I think it's the best Windows version short of using Server 2003 for a dev OS. I can't think of any single piece of hardware I own that doesn't have proper drivers. Well, maybe some ancient video cards, but if I really have to use such old hardware, it'll be used in another box anyway and I'll carry on with my life instead of antagonizing over such things.
A whole-hearted Hazzah to you! XP x64 is the best OS I have used and I have tried Vista (32 and 64 bit). Driver issues are beat by shopping smart and doing your research. By the way XP 64 bit is Server 2k3. at least the kernal. I will say it again. It is the most stable and fastest OS from the MS Windows shelf.
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First things first, it depends on what you're planning on doing and secondly are we talking Vista or XP here? I'll assume Vista since XPx64 has a bad enough reputation that you wouldn't even contemplate it. I'm only using Vista x64 on my desktop and it's pretty much the only OS that I use at the moment. I have got to say though that on my setup Vista (whether this is just the x64 edition or not) does run faster than XP did (in the things that matter anyway such as responsiveness). I am using VS2008 at the moment although on my previous trial of Vista did have VS2005 running side-by-side with the Orcas Beta, make sure that before you attempt anything with VS2005 though install SP1 and SP1 for Vista. Running IIS7 and SQL 2005 Express as well in the background. Am doing C#, Windows Forms, WPF and ASP.NET development, the odd bit of C++ stuff quite happily on it. Specs for my machine are sufficient for me: AMD Athlon X2 3800+ 2GB DDR2-6400 nVidia 8800GTS 320MB 1x120GB E-IDE for OS 1x500GB SATA II for data 1x500GB USB / IDE for backups Have been very tempted to double my RAM up but what with spending £1550 on a second gun will hold off for the moment since the RAM is not essential. What I suggest if at all possible is to get a second hard drive and try out the x64 edition first, I ran mine for 90days (the maximum allowed under the Vista trial) and had a few kinks to iron out with the drivers but all were fixed pretty sharpish. In fact most things just ran out of the box, I do remember having to download the drivers for the MoBo on a seperate computer and transfer them because the disc that came didn't have x64 drivers on it and therefore couldn't use the ethernet port to download the drivers. I don't know whether it has any effect but perhaps by having a top-end graphics card Vista can offload some of it's workload to the card rather than hogging the processor. One thing I have noticed is that Vista is faster to boot than XP (with all the same antivirus etc) however recently it takes much longer but that's because I haven't been rebooting it very frequently (last time was at least 2 weeks ago) and thus when it has to reboot it usually has to install updates etc. So in summary, for me, running the x64 version of Vista has been nothing but joy (much prefer it to XP, even the start menu makes it completely worthwhile). Currently the only issue I have is with my wirel
Ed.Poore wrote:
even the start menu makes it completely worthwhile
The Start Menu search feature is killer! Just a couple letters and there is the app to launch, not more digging through the menues for those nested apps. I also am sold out on the new Explorer. I hate the issue with it reverting its listing style, but that "Favorite Links" pane is wonderful! I seldom have to navigate folders for common things, simple select it from my Favorite Links. Also, the path bar in Explorer. When I first started using it I was a bit thrown off, but after a while, I love it, really simply to bounce around folders. Anyway, had to throw my few pennys worth in :)
Rocky <>< Blog Post: Handy utility app that is always on my machines! Tech Blog Post: Moving on up with Windows Live stuff and Plus!
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I know with the 64-bit version you can use more than 3gb of RAM, but are there any other tangible benefits on a system primarily used for development (specifically, running VS2005/2008)? I'm running an Opteron 185 system with 2gb of RAM, but I might upgrade to a quad core despite the impending 2012 end-of-the-world event...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001While the 64 bit apps (if you have them) run much faster, most software is still 32 bit, but hey, they work just fine. That said though, it really depends on how long you plan to keep the machine without upgrading again. I know that some of Microsoft's server software will go 64 bit soon with no 32 bit versions. If you do development where you will need to test on them, you would be another box for testing. Also, if you are using a 64 bit machine we stick with a 32 bit OS? Visual Studio and most of the development tools are still 32 bit, but I think we will see a 64 bit version offered in the next version. The only catch is to make sure your hardware is compatbile and has comptable drivers. Prior to installing Vista 64, I heard all kinds of horror stories of drivers not working, but my install work find with only one driver (Graphire Tablet Driver) that had issues which is supposed to be fixed.
Rocky <>< Blog Post: Handy utility app that is always on my machines! Tech Blog Post: Moving on up with Windows Live stuff and Plus!