Who is going to switch to VS 2008?
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S Smerk wrote:
My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already.
While I didn't pay for VS2008, I would say there's a business case in the performance improvements that come with VS2008 that would justify the expenditure. (Gee, did I just win the daily buzzword bingo award?) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I would say there's a business case ...
Marc, I clicked your reply first (before reading the original post) expecting some good sarcasm from you, I was so disappointed. :-D
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John C wrote:
I bet a *lot* of people at that point cancelled or downgraded their subscription and it probably cost MS a lot of developer revenue.
I meet monthly with local small business owners in the software field. About a dozen of us get together for dinner and drinks to share war stories and our outlook on the bidness. And, it seems what you said has been echoed by just about every one of them who develop exclusively for windows. I really think with the change in MSND, the move to the Team System silliness, the refusal to place bug fixes ahead of new releases, and 20 friggin versions of vista that MS has really confused and annoyed a lot of developers and end users.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
It was such a no brainer before with the old msdn universal, one price and you got everything, it was a form of insurance, you never knew what you were going to need and once you paid the initial subscription it was just the renewal fee yearly after that. No muss no fuss. Then, at a time when MS had pretty much shot their wad on any new releases of any of their products for some time they decide they don't want the smaller development shops any more and come out with the team system craziness and force everyone to make a decision. In effect Microsoft bit the hand that feeds them, there are a *lot* of smaller ISV's like us out there not to mention consultants and for hire programmers who were shat on with that decision. Also a lot of the really big shops had no use for the team system crap either, they already had their own testing and profiling and RCS systems in place. Couple that with the lack of any new releases of anything substantial and it was a no brainer to just say screw it, when I need it I'll buy it "off the shelf" and screw the whole msdn system entirely. It was the most brain dead move MS made in years. Maybe this recent shake up at MS management will result in someone sane being in charge of developer stuff.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
In the future (and I learned this from the fine people on this site), keep an eye out for release events sponsored/presented by Microsoft. They give away a LOT of copies every release - full versions. Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ :java:
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kindof a trick question, i am the sole employee of my company. but the company bought vs05 and vs08. we (The Company) still use VC6 for most of our C++ work, though. just one product has moved to VS05. i doubt we'll move any of them to VS08 any time soon. no reason to.
Chris Losinger wrote:
i doubt we'll move any of them to VS08 any time soon. no reason to.
I was disappointed in VS05 and wanted to try VS08, but found out we (The Company) did not buy VS08. BTW, I am one of the 20000+ employees in The Company, only a small portion of us, about 2000, work on code.
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S Smerk wrote:
My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already.
While I didn't pay for VS2008, I would say there's a business case in the performance improvements that come with VS2008 that would justify the expenditure. (Gee, did I just win the daily buzzword bingo award?) Marc
Only if you use it proactively to synergise the paradigm shift to enterprise centric WTPF data processing.
Otherwise [Microsoft is] toast in the long term no matter how much money they've got. They would be already if the Linux community didn't have it's head so firmly up it's own command line buffer that it looks like taking 15 years to find the desktop. -- Matthew Faithfull
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
Go to the launch event and get it for free.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I would say there's a business case ...
Marc, I clicked your reply first (before reading the original post) expecting some good sarcasm from you, I was so disappointed. :-D
Xiangyang Liu wrote:
expecting some good sarcasm from you, I was so disappointed.
If I emitted a constant stream of sarcasm, nobody would pay attention to me. So I have to intersperse the sarcasm with other non-sarcastic responses on occasion. ;P Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote:
there's a business case in the performance improvements
News to me, no one has made any case for performance improvements that I've heard of.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
John C wrote:
News to me, no one has made any case for performance improvements that I've heard of.
Besides compilation being faster, it now also only compiles projects that have code changes. VS2005 would compile every project, whether the code had changed or not. It significantly improved the performance of building a project where it's one out of 30 to 60 projects. Which is a godsend when I'm not making any changes at all, just re-running the app to chase down a complex bug. We're talking .NET projects here, BTW, and I don't know if it affects VB.NET development because I only C# coding. Marc
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
I got it through my personal MSDN subscription. I'm now only using VS 2005 for XNA Game Studio. The company where I work has also switched to 2008, even though we're still targeting the 2.0 framework.
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
S Smerk wrote:
So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money
I did. I bought the upgrade version - as I did for VS 2003 and VS 6. Basically I like to use at home what I happen to use at work. Plus, being a contractor I have to offset my taxes against something. I will probably get VS 2008 but there's no pressing urgency. In the short term I will play with the Express versions. I also have a VS 2008 90-day trial which I can use if I need to investigate the more advanced features.
Kevin
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John C wrote:
News to me, no one has made any case for performance improvements that I've heard of.
Besides compilation being faster, it now also only compiles projects that have code changes. VS2005 would compile every project, whether the code had changed or not. It significantly improved the performance of building a project where it's one out of 30 to 60 projects. Which is a godsend when I'm not making any changes at all, just re-running the app to chase down a complex bug. We're talking .NET projects here, BTW, and I don't know if it affects VB.NET development because I only C# coding. Marc
Yeah I do the same (large .net c# projects) and I have a pretty large solution I work on mostly with dozens of projects in it, I use the configuration manager a lot and uncheck the Build property for stuff I'm not immediately working on. That's definitely a good thing, but not worth the cost of upgrade I don't think.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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So how many of you developers out there actually bought your own VS 2005 with your OWN money, not your company's money? Now, out of those who did, are you going to buy VS 2008 or wait a while like myself? I really want to buy it but I can't justify the cost right now. My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already. -- Steve
I started using VS2008 a month ago or so. I am running Vista and VS2005 has some minor issues which can be lived with but are annoying in the long run. I also noticed that VS2008 improved performance and has a more shiny UI. :P I moved a few projects to VS2008 already but still have majority in 2005, I think. Some clients don't want to go for 2008 yet.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
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It was such a no brainer before with the old msdn universal, one price and you got everything, it was a form of insurance, you never knew what you were going to need and once you paid the initial subscription it was just the renewal fee yearly after that. No muss no fuss. Then, at a time when MS had pretty much shot their wad on any new releases of any of their products for some time they decide they don't want the smaller development shops any more and come out with the team system craziness and force everyone to make a decision. In effect Microsoft bit the hand that feeds them, there are a *lot* of smaller ISV's like us out there not to mention consultants and for hire programmers who were shat on with that decision. Also a lot of the really big shops had no use for the team system crap either, they already had their own testing and profiling and RCS systems in place. Couple that with the lack of any new releases of anything substantial and it was a no brainer to just say screw it, when I need it I'll buy it "off the shelf" and screw the whole msdn system entirely. It was the most brain dead move MS made in years. Maybe this recent shake up at MS management will result in someone sane being in charge of developer stuff.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
What about (the current) MSDN Professional? Is that not enough for you?
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
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I started using VS2008 a month ago or so. I am running Vista and VS2005 has some minor issues which can be lived with but are annoying in the long run. I also noticed that VS2008 improved performance and has a more shiny UI. :P I moved a few projects to VS2008 already but still have majority in 2005, I think. Some clients don't want to go for 2008 yet.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
You can build 2.0 framework projects with VS08.
Otherwise [Microsoft is] toast in the long term no matter how much money they've got. They would be already if the Linux community didn't have it's head so firmly up it's own command line buffer that it looks like taking 15 years to find the desktop. -- Matthew Faithfull
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What about (the current) MSDN Professional? Is that not enough for you?
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
Enough? I don't understand your question at all. It's *too* much: too much money, too many products that are not new or we all already have had for years now. MSDN professional is USD$1199.00 that gets me VS pro which sells alone for USD$799.00 (using Microsofts srp prices). That's $400.00 dollars more and what does that get you right now? Operating systems that have been out for years and a beta of windows server 2008. Now consider that if you subscribe to msdn you have to renew that *every* year, year after year, so last year the renewal got you nothing, no new products at all. I bought VS pro 2005 when it came out. I can ride it for easily one more year. If I need windows server 2008 I can buy it online from the cheapest legit online source I can find. I'm way ahead by *not* subscribing. If MS were releasing a new product every year it would perhaps make sense to subscribe. If the subscription renewal price were a tenth of what it is then maybe it would make sense but right now it makes no sense for us to subscribe. It's economically and technically senseless. Very few companies would subscribe if their employees treated the expense like it was their own money but programmers who don't have to pay for it happily go to their managers and say they *have* to have it and the company knows no better so they waste the money on the subscriptions. Good deal for Microsoft as long as word doesn't get out.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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You can build 2.0 framework projects with VS08.
Otherwise [Microsoft is] toast in the long term no matter how much money they've got. They would be already if the Linux community didn't have it's head so firmly up it's own command line buffer that it looks like taking 15 years to find the desktop. -- Matthew Faithfull
dan neely wrote:
You can build 2.0 framework projects with VS08.
I know, I am using it. :) All my VS2008 projects are .NET 2.0, I just ported them from VS2005 because I wanted to use the new IDE on Vista.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
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Enough? I don't understand your question at all. It's *too* much: too much money, too many products that are not new or we all already have had for years now. MSDN professional is USD$1199.00 that gets me VS pro which sells alone for USD$799.00 (using Microsofts srp prices). That's $400.00 dollars more and what does that get you right now? Operating systems that have been out for years and a beta of windows server 2008. Now consider that if you subscribe to msdn you have to renew that *every* year, year after year, so last year the renewal got you nothing, no new products at all. I bought VS pro 2005 when it came out. I can ride it for easily one more year. If I need windows server 2008 I can buy it online from the cheapest legit online source I can find. I'm way ahead by *not* subscribing. If MS were releasing a new product every year it would perhaps make sense to subscribe. If the subscription renewal price were a tenth of what it is then maybe it would make sense but right now it makes no sense for us to subscribe. It's economically and technically senseless. Very few companies would subscribe if their employees treated the expense like it was their own money but programmers who don't have to pay for it happily go to their managers and say they *have* to have it and the company knows no better so they waste the money on the subscriptions. Good deal for Microsoft as long as word doesn't get out.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
I hear you. Sorry, I clearly didn't understand you - you said you had Universal and that Team System was too much, so I was wondering why you didn't just purchase the Professional subscription instead. :) I have MSDN Pro just because I applied for the Microsoft Empower for ISVs[^] program. But compared to normal prices it costs $375 for 1 year. :P I am going to prolong my membership this year for another $375, but with normal prices you are absolutely right.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
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S Smerk wrote:
My company uses VS 2005 and will be using it for sometime...they have invested a lot of money into it already.
While I didn't pay for VS2008, I would say there's a business case in the performance improvements that come with VS2008 that would justify the expenditure. (Gee, did I just win the daily buzzword bingo award?) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
(Gee, did I just win the daily buzzword bingo award?)
I think you have to use "enterprise" at least once to qualify.
Best wishes, Hans
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I hear you. Sorry, I clearly didn't understand you - you said you had Universal and that Team System was too much, so I was wondering why you didn't just purchase the Professional subscription instead. :) I have MSDN Pro just because I applied for the Microsoft Empower for ISVs[^] program. But compared to normal prices it costs $375 for 1 year. :P I am going to prolong my membership this year for another $375, but with normal prices you are absolutely right.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
Sorry, I clearly didn't understand you
No worries! :) We had a universal subscription from, I think, 1998 to whenever it was they scrapped the Universal, 2005? I think. Anyway it wasn't about the expense, it was more about not really thinking about it. We just kept renewing year after year and not really considering how much of it we were using, plus there were a lot of new product releases over that period of time from MS that made it seem valuable. When we were told universal was no longer an option and we'd have to choose we took a long close look at what we needed and that was that. I looked at that empower thing a while ago but I think we're too big and have been around too long to qualify.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.