Irrational Atheists
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Whoa.. the idiot called you an idiot.
No idiot called him an idiot. However, I demonstated that he is an idiot. Or, at any rate, that he is more than willing to act the idiot. And that's really the same thing, isn't it? If you could think, you'd not constantly find yourself having these problems
Ilíon wrote:
However, I demonstated that he is an idiot.
There's your delusions of grandeur again. :laugh:
Furthermore, in Galileo's time and for quite some time afterwards, the "scientific evidence" was *against* heliocentrism. - Ilion
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Not only did I read and understand it, I largely agree with it. However, there is a huge difference between me agreeing with it and the universe agreeing with it.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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Couldn't help smile when a I saw some dolt call atheists irrational, perhaps they should read this: http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html[^] Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell If there is an educated response provide the link and I'll read it.
In the first few paragraphs he imposes his own, incorrect, definition of Christianity, entirely fails to define the God he's talking about, obviously becuase he can't but that's another matter and then uses an argument domain transition to invalidate an argument which imposes an implicit limit on the definition he has failed to give. Sucha limit being in direct contradiction with the sense of the argument he's trying to invalidate. (i.e he's using an unstated false definition of God to undermine an argument about God based on an entirely different definition) No further reading is necessary to determine that the man is a self deluded fool quite happy to redefine and requilify the entire universe in relation to his own ideas and then make utterly meaningless declarations about his belief or otherwise in an idea that he made up in the first place. :doh: Why would anyone care further what he thinks. :rolleyes:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I suspect that has somewhat more to do with the fact that no one is trying to encourage your kids to pray to Ganesh in school.
No offense, but this isn't it and you know it. I'm Catholic, and Christian theology in public life is predominately Protestant. There is much in recent history to support bad blood between our sects, yet I don't get upset at the idea of some sliver of Protestant theology making its way into the lives of kids. Because I know that I can take them to Mass and they forget all about it. A ten-minute talk with your kids, one time, would head all of the attempted religious indoctrination off at the pass. What you're upset about is the implication by religious people that you are lacking. That you are evil. News flash: you probably are lacking and you probably are evil. If you're not, then get over it. Life is too short to worry about whether or not some person you've never met thinks you're going to imaginary Hell.
You made good points, but the matter goes even deeper and exposes (once again) the *irrationality* and illogic of the 'atheist' (generic) ... and also exposes the fact that he (generic) doesn't merely "lack belief that there is a God," that he is not indifferent to the issue; that, in fact, he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God. Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children [ignoring the small matters: 1) that "atheism" tends to the state of childlessness, 2) it's *impossible* to force anyone to be a Christian]. For, after all, were 'atheism' the truth about the nature of reality, then it wouldn't *matter* in the least whether a person were an 'atheist' or a Christian: all die, and that's the end of the matter. From their *own* claimed point of view we see that it is an act of irrationality to oppose *any* religion (per se). Apparently, they don't believe what they believe.
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In the first few paragraphs he imposes his own, incorrect, definition of Christianity, entirely fails to define the God he's talking about, obviously becuase he can't but that's another matter and then uses an argument domain transition to invalidate an argument which imposes an implicit limit on the definition he has failed to give. Sucha limit being in direct contradiction with the sense of the argument he's trying to invalidate. (i.e he's using an unstated false definition of God to undermine an argument about God based on an entirely different definition) No further reading is necessary to determine that the man is a self deluded fool quite happy to redefine and requilify the entire universe in relation to his own ideas and then make utterly meaningless declarations about his belief or otherwise in an idea that he made up in the first place. :doh: Why would anyone care further what he thinks. :rolleyes:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
... No further reading is necessary to determine that the man is a self deluded fool quite happy to redefine and requilify the entire universe in relation to his own ideas and then make utterly meaningless declarations about his belief or otherwise in an idea that he made up in the first place.
As I'm constantly pointing out, our 'atheists' are *illogical* and *irrational* -- and they like it that way. To more simply summarize the idea expressed in the part of your post I didn't quote: "Nearly every 'atheist,' when he tries to present an argument against God, produces an argument against Zeus, and then declares himself done."
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You made good points, but the matter goes even deeper and exposes (once again) the *irrationality* and illogic of the 'atheist' (generic) ... and also exposes the fact that he (generic) doesn't merely "lack belief that there is a God," that he is not indifferent to the issue; that, in fact, he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God. Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children [ignoring the small matters: 1) that "atheism" tends to the state of childlessness, 2) it's *impossible* to force anyone to be a Christian]. For, after all, were 'atheism' the truth about the nature of reality, then it wouldn't *matter* in the least whether a person were an 'atheist' or a Christian: all die, and that's the end of the matter. From their *own* claimed point of view we see that it is an act of irrationality to oppose *any* religion (per se). Apparently, they don't believe what they believe.
Ilíon wrote:
Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children
So since atheists do not believe in God, they should not care that children are forcibly indoctrinated to believe in God? Excellent argument!
Ilíon wrote:
he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God.
You are literally unable to comprehend that someone could not believe in God, but yet you imagine yourself to be logical, and imagine yourself to win debates with atheists. You are absolutely pathetic and laughable. :laugh:
Furthermore, in Galileo's time and for quite some time afterwards, the "scientific evidence" was *against* heliocentrism. - Ilion
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It is rather typical of humanist eliteism to assume that the universe, which has not yet revealed itself to even be understandable to the human mind, is some how obligated to conform to the rationality of Russell. I should think that a truly rational mind would be capable of tolerating the notion that the universe is not so obligated.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Ah yes, here comes the little peep from the peanut-gallery apologist crowd. Good job, thanks for coming out. Don't call us, we'll call you.
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J4amieC wrote:
my ADD wont allow me to read all that... is there cliff notes?
Why I Am Not A Christian (Cliff's Notes Version) by Bertrand Russell Christians are stoopid! The End.
Ilíon wrote:
Why I Am Not A Christian (Cliff's Notes Version) by Bertrand Russell Christians are stoopid! The End.
Looks like you're trying as hard as you can to prove him right.
Furthermore, in Galileo's time and for quite some time afterwards, the "scientific evidence" was *against* heliocentrism. - Ilion
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Couldn't help smile when a I saw some dolt call atheists irrational, perhaps they should read this: http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html[^] Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell If there is an educated response provide the link and I'll read it.
Here is a rebuttal by Dr. Ravi Zacharias titled "Why I am not an atheist." It's an MP3. This is part 1, I can't seem to find a link to part 2... Agree or disagree, I think you'll find it interesting. He's an extremely articulate speaker. http://htod.cdncon.com/o2/rzimht/MP3/LMPT/131-1.mp3[^] I think you'll find him surprisingly fair.
modified on Friday, February 22, 2008 2:35 PM
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You made good points, but the matter goes even deeper and exposes (once again) the *irrationality* and illogic of the 'atheist' (generic) ... and also exposes the fact that he (generic) doesn't merely "lack belief that there is a God," that he is not indifferent to the issue; that, in fact, he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God. Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children [ignoring the small matters: 1) that "atheism" tends to the state of childlessness, 2) it's *impossible* to force anyone to be a Christian]. For, after all, were 'atheism' the truth about the nature of reality, then it wouldn't *matter* in the least whether a person were an 'atheist' or a Christian: all die, and that's the end of the matter. From their *own* claimed point of view we see that it is an act of irrationality to oppose *any* religion (per se). Apparently, they don't believe what they believe.
Ilíon wrote:
- it's *impossible* to force anyone to be a Christian
*giggles* Read a history book or 25 and then make that statement. Forced conversions at sword/spear/gunpoint are a fundamental feature of human history.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
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Ah yes, here comes the little peep from the peanut-gallery apologist crowd. Good job, thanks for coming out. Don't call us, we'll call you.
A truly rational mind would appreciate the importance of not merely the peanut-gallery, but the apology also.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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Ilíon wrote:
Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children
So since atheists do not believe in God, they should not care that children are forcibly indoctrinated to believe in God? Excellent argument!
Ilíon wrote:
he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God.
You are literally unable to comprehend that someone could not believe in God, but yet you imagine yourself to be logical, and imagine yourself to win debates with atheists. You are absolutely pathetic and laughable. :laugh:
Furthermore, in Galileo's time and for quite some time afterwards, the "scientific evidence" was *against* heliocentrism. - Ilion
DemonPossessed wrote:
So since atheists do not believe in God, they should not care that children are forcibly indoctrinated to believe in God? Excellent argument!
If you don't believe in peanuts, who cares if your kids spend 5 minutes a year thinking about imaginary peanuts? Yeah, absolutely you shouldn't care, which is why it's so puzzling that you do.
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Here is a rebuttal by Dr. Ravi Zacharias titled "Why I am not an atheist." It's an MP3. This is part 1, I can't seem to find a link to part 2... Agree or disagree, I think you'll find it interesting. He's an extremely articulate speaker. http://htod.cdncon.com/o2/rzimht/MP3/LMPT/131-1.mp3[^] I think you'll find him surprisingly fair.
modified on Friday, February 22, 2008 2:35 PM
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A truly rational mind would appreciate the importance of not merely the peanut-gallery, but the apology also.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Now you sound like the Shithead.
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DemonPossessed wrote:
So since atheists do not believe in God, they should not care that children are forcibly indoctrinated to believe in God? Excellent argument!
If you don't believe in peanuts, who cares if your kids spend 5 minutes a year thinking about imaginary peanuts? Yeah, absolutely you shouldn't care, which is why it's so puzzling that you do.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
If you don't believe in peanuts, who cares if your kids spend 5 minutes a year thinking about imaginary peanuts? Yeah, absolutely you shouldn't care, which is why it's so puzzling that you do.
What an irrelevant and useless analogy.
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I suspect that has somewhat more to do with the fact that no one is trying to encourage your kids to pray to Ganesh in school.
No offense, but this isn't it and you know it. I'm Catholic, and Christian theology in public life is predominately Protestant. There is much in recent history to support bad blood between our sects, yet I don't get upset at the idea of some sliver of Protestant theology making its way into the lives of kids. Because I know that I can take them to Mass and they forget all about it. A ten-minute talk with your kids, one time, would head all of the attempted religious indoctrination off at the pass. What you're upset about is the implication by religious people that you are lacking. That you are evil. News flash: you probably are lacking and you probably are evil. If you're not, then get over it. Life is too short to worry about whether or not some person you've never met thinks you're going to imaginary Hell.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
No offense, but this isn't it and you know it. I'm Catholic, and Christian theology in public life is predominately Protestant. There is much in recent history to support bad blood between our sects, yet I don't get upset at the idea of some sliver of Protestant theology making its way into the lives of kids. Because I know that I can take them to Mass and they forget all about it. A ten-minute talk with your kids, one time, would head all of the attempted religious indoctrination off at the pass.
No offense, but what Christian theology in public life? Your kids aren't asked to pray in school (unless you're sending them to parochial school, of course). When someone in government tries to bring religion overtly into their job -- Ashcroft, for instance -- their behavior is seen as wrong. (Secular government of religious men, right?) Outside of government, who gives a rat's ass? Street corner preachers, atheist college professors with book deals -- it just doesn't matter. School, however -- public school, anyway -- is a government institution, and should not include Christian theology outside studies of comparative religion. That was my point.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
What you're upset about is the implication by religious people that you are lacking. That you are evil.
Again, I don't give a rat's ass what atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, or Scientologists think of my beliefs, my completeness as a human being, or my likely disposition in the hereafter. I'm comfortable in my philosophy (I'm not an atheist, by the way), and being damned by someone's God in which I do not believe -- by proxy, no less -- means nothing to me.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
News flash: you probably are lacking and you probably are evil. If you're not, then get over it. Life is too short to worry about whether or not some person you've never met thinks you're going to imaginary Hell.
I'm not the one getting upset. That would be Ilíon.
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Now you sound like the Shithead.
All I can say is that the only thing that trully horrifies me is the spectre of a society that cannot happily tolerate intellectual competition from the various peanut galleries. I've decided that I am actually a monistic idealist.[^] I arrived at these tenants on my own, and was quite surprised to recently discover there is actually an entire philosophy dedicated to these ideas. As with everything else, there are those who are trying to make yet another religion out of it. But for me it is just an interesting way of thinking about the universe, no religion necessary. You just never know what kinds of interesting insights might pop out of the occassional peanut gallery.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
No offense, but this isn't it and you know it. I'm Catholic, and Christian theology in public life is predominately Protestant. There is much in recent history to support bad blood between our sects, yet I don't get upset at the idea of some sliver of Protestant theology making its way into the lives of kids. Because I know that I can take them to Mass and they forget all about it. A ten-minute talk with your kids, one time, would head all of the attempted religious indoctrination off at the pass.
No offense, but what Christian theology in public life? Your kids aren't asked to pray in school (unless you're sending them to parochial school, of course). When someone in government tries to bring religion overtly into their job -- Ashcroft, for instance -- their behavior is seen as wrong. (Secular government of religious men, right?) Outside of government, who gives a rat's ass? Street corner preachers, atheist college professors with book deals -- it just doesn't matter. School, however -- public school, anyway -- is a government institution, and should not include Christian theology outside studies of comparative religion. That was my point.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
What you're upset about is the implication by religious people that you are lacking. That you are evil.
Again, I don't give a rat's ass what atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, or Scientologists think of my beliefs, my completeness as a human being, or my likely disposition in the hereafter. I'm comfortable in my philosophy (I'm not an atheist, by the way), and being damned by someone's God in which I do not believe -- by proxy, no less -- means nothing to me.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
News flash: you probably are lacking and you probably are evil. If you're not, then get over it. Life is too short to worry about whether or not some person you've never met thinks you're going to imaginary Hell.
I'm not the one getting upset. That would be Ilíon.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
School, however -- public school, anyway -- is a government institution
No it isn't, at least not in a Jeffersonian society. The government has simply declared them to be its own so that it can control what is taught. Thats known as 'political indoctrination' in most parts of the world.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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DemonPossessed wrote:
So since atheists do not believe in God, they should not care that children are forcibly indoctrinated to believe in God? Excellent argument!
If you don't believe in peanuts, who cares if your kids spend 5 minutes a year thinking about imaginary peanuts? Yeah, absolutely you shouldn't care, which is why it's so puzzling that you do.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
If you don't believe in peanuts, who cares if your kids spend 5 minutes a year thinking about imaginary peanuts? Yeah, absolutely you shouldn't care, which is why it's so puzzling that you do.
That is only puzzling to you and Ilion because you have trouble understanding even the most basic concepts related to religion and atheism, yet try to argue about it and only succeed in making fools out of yourselves. There is a bit more to Christianity than believing in an imaginary God. There is the fear of going to hell if you don't follow the commandments from the Bible. There is the teaching that a morally perfect God sacrificed his own son to himself. So it stands to reason that atheists do not want children indoctrinated with that. The fact that you say that atheists shouldn't care is ludicrous and even most Christians would be intelligent enough not to try to argue that.
Furthermore, in Galileo's time and for quite some time afterwards, the "scientific evidence" was *against* heliocentrism. - Ilion
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You made good points, but the matter goes even deeper and exposes (once again) the *irrationality* and illogic of the 'atheist' (generic) ... and also exposes the fact that he (generic) doesn't merely "lack belief that there is a God," that he is not indifferent to the issue; that, in fact, he (generic) is every bit the "theist" that you and I are, but that he hates God, whereas you and I are trying to love God. Consider: if our 'atheists' *actually* believed what they say they believe, it wouldn't bother them the least little bit even were it true that Christians were trying to forceably indoctrinate their children [ignoring the small matters: 1) that "atheism" tends to the state of childlessness, 2) it's *impossible* to force anyone to be a Christian]. For, after all, were 'atheism' the truth about the nature of reality, then it wouldn't *matter* in the least whether a person were an 'atheist' or a Christian: all die, and that's the end of the matter. From their *own* claimed point of view we see that it is an act of irrationality to oppose *any* religion (per se). Apparently, they don't believe what they believe.
Ilíon wrote:
Apparently, they don't believe what they believe.
the above is the most irrational thing, you've drivelled.
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Donate to help Conquer Cancer[^]