Definition of Marriage gets Debated in California
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But it does bring up the broader issue of whether or not we are a culture in any meaningful sense of that word and what institutions within our society should have some degree of authority to define the parameters of that culture. Marriage is about as fundamental to the definition of 'culture' as there is. To maintain that marriage is whatever any two, or more, individuals say it is, and that the rest of us have no option but to accept such associations is to say that we are not a culture in any way at all. I have no problem with such an open, cultureless, society as long as one of the other principles of that society is that I am free to discriminate against any part of it I like, in whatever way I like for whatever reason I like. But if I can be forced by the very same government which is not supposed to define marriage to accept whatever bizarre forms of marriage get created, than what is the difference in that and just leaving society the way it is and force marriage to remain between a man and a woman? Either way, the government is imposing itself upon the definitions of culture.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Well Oakman says your post is rational and intelligent. You have not yet pulled the wool over my eyes of course. ;) You can flower up your posts all you want, but at the end of the day you are just proposing oppression of individual freedoms of people that want to do things that you are 100% sure you will never want to do. As you are well aware we have had many past discussions regarding the constitutional support for freedom. I'm still not buying your bigoted bag of crap I don't care how fancy you wrap it up or how much perfumed prose you pour over it.
led mike
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Any you are claiming to know which is which. Are you the final arbiter of truth?
Facts are verifiable. Beliefs or opinions are not. Using those definitions, it is quite easy for any of us to identify which is which. So far you have shown no way to verify the existence of your god. Until you do, you are promulgating a belief - one you have already admitted may be a snare of the Antichrist.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Facts are verifiable. Beliefs or opinions are not.
I have already showed you that this is logically false so you're using bad definitions that can only lead to bad conclusions.
Oakman wrote:
So far you have shown no way to verify the existence of your god
Neither have I attempted to do that which cannot be done and is unnecessary.
Oakman wrote:
one you have already admitted may be a snare of the Antichrist.
That is simply a lie, or you simply can't read, go back and look again.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
He boldly rejects your tolerance
Then that is his choice. If I accept his point of view without agreeing with it, how is that wrong. Or would you have me be violently against it, if the latter, perhaps you had better state what the limitations of my violence should be that is acceptable in a civilised society.
If you accept that which is the opposite of what you believe then that surely says something about the weakness of your belief, or perhaps the inherant weakness of what you believe in?
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Oakman wrote:
Facts are provable
Not all facts are provable that's precisely the point. If it's a fact that God doesn't exist then it's still not provable. If it's a fact that he does exist it isn't provable but one or the other must be a fact.
Oakman wrote:
You are extremely presumptious to speak for Him.
Whay would say that? He speaks for himself and if he speaks through me then it is because he chooses to. Will you place yourself between me and God as judge?
Oakman wrote:
High endorphins are not the presence of God. If you saw a Burning Bush create tablets of stone that codify the laws or some other equally physical object then the answer is yes.
So you are the judge of what is and is not an experience of God? I never said anything about the nature of my experience and yet you presume to know something about it.
Oakman wrote:
With that admission you are on the road to understanding.
:laugh: No my friend we are on very different roads you and I and 'understanding' is not the destination of either of them.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Not all facts are provable
that's a meaningless noise. Since facts are defined as those things which are objectively provable. You have just said that not all of those things which are provable aren't provable. x=!x
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Whay would say that? He speaks for himself and if he speaks through me then it is because he chooses to. Will you place yourself between me and God as judge?
That's actually amusing. But Osama bin Laden claims the same thing and offers no less proof than you.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
So you are the judge of what is and is not an experience of God? I never said anything about the nature of my experience and yet you presume to know something about it.
Actually I was resisting your attempts to rewrite my question so you wouldn't look like a fool answering it. The nature of your experience is irrelevant.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No my friend we are on very different roads you and I and 'understanding' is not the destination of either of them
I'm heading for the Summerlands. And when I am ready, I'll take another ride on the rollercoaster.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Any you are claiming to know which is which. Are you the final arbiter of truth?
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Any you are claiming to know which is which. Are you the final arbiter of truth?
So you are. You are claiming to speak of what God did and did not, as if it was a fact? If you believe that the Earth and everything on it just popped out into existence as an act of God, this is your belief, not a fact. At best, a theory, like the Big Bang is a theory, not a fact. That is the problem with people like you. You take your religious beliefs as it was a fact, and try to impose to other people. If you believe in God and choose to rule your life accordingly, good for you. I will never impose my atheism to you, so don't impose your religion to me.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Shout it from the rooftops if you so wish.
Thank you, I will.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
But I will be deaf to your words of wisdom.
Sadly true as without the spirit of God no one is capable of faith.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Since the masses learned how to read and write, they are no longer dependent upon the local vicar's pontifications. We are no longer the ill-educated that can be led by the nose blindly towards a particular belief or religious viewpoint.
This carries the tacit assumption that all such belief and religious viewpoints are false and therefore less likely to be accepted by more educated people. Of course if one such belief or viewpoint were in fact to be true then all good education would only increase the level of acceptance of it. In fact as the fundamental truth all good education would be based on it. Perhaps this is why most of that drive to educate that you identify as having occured was originally led and promoted by Christians, even the predecessors of very vicars you disagree with.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Based on your posts it seems you are missing the most important point. It has nothing to do with the truth (which is right and which is wrong, is God or not). It has only to do with that fact that this country was founded on the basis of freedom and religious freedom is a significantly important one. Now since not all of them can be 100% correct it is without question that the freedom you are entitled to as an American is not dependent on your beliefs being correct. Since we have the unalienable right to freedom, no one, not even a majority has the right to deny those freedoms. This aspect of our history is fundamental to Jeffersonian Principles and had a major impact on the Constitution and design of the checks and balances. Today there is a massive effort to destroy our founding principles by the religious right. What will happen? I have no idea what the future holds but the past is known.
led mike
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Marriage is a unique institution; it was not invented by man but by God and as such all debate about redefining it is moot. None of use own the definition so none of us can change it. We can lie to ourselves and attempt to exceed our authority but it makes no difference. You are married if God considers yo married and not if he considers you not and that's an end of it. Anyone who wants to invent some other form of union or statute or institution can do so if they have the power but it is not marriage.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Where was marriage invented by God? I'm genuinely curious, because my primary school religious instruction never covered it. The first mention I recall of it was when Cain went to Nod and found a wife.
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Oakman wrote:
There is certainly no reason to tell some old parish priest that he has to marry two men
What does that have to do with the making same sex marriage illegal? :confused:
led mike
led mike wrote:
What does that have to do with the making same sex marriage illegal?
A parallel to nurses who are required in some hospitals to assist with abortions. Not important to my thesis of course, so feel free to ignore it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Not all facts are provable
that's a meaningless noise. Since facts are defined as those things which are objectively provable. You have just said that not all of those things which are provable aren't provable. x=!x
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Whay would say that? He speaks for himself and if he speaks through me then it is because he chooses to. Will you place yourself between me and God as judge?
That's actually amusing. But Osama bin Laden claims the same thing and offers no less proof than you.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
So you are the judge of what is and is not an experience of God? I never said anything about the nature of my experience and yet you presume to know something about it.
Actually I was resisting your attempts to rewrite my question so you wouldn't look like a fool answering it. The nature of your experience is irrelevant.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No my friend we are on very different roads you and I and 'understanding' is not the destination of either of them
I'm heading for the Summerlands. And when I am ready, I'll take another ride on the rollercoaster.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Since facts are defined as those things which are objectively provable.
No facts are those things that are objectively true. You're using the wrong definition to come logically to a false conclusion.
Oakman wrote:
The nature of your experience is irrelevant.
And yet you just claimed that it was relevant :confused:
Oakman wrote:
I'm heading for the Summerlands. And when I am ready, I'll take another ride on the rollercoaster.
No, that's just your false religion misinforming you.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Any you are claiming to know which is which. Are you the final arbiter of truth?
So you are. You are claiming to speak of what God did and did not, as if it was a fact? If you believe that the Earth and everything on it just popped out into existence as an act of God, this is your belief, not a fact. At best, a theory, like the Big Bang is a theory, not a fact. That is the problem with people like you. You take your religious beliefs as it was a fact, and try to impose to other people. If you believe in God and choose to rule your life accordingly, good for you. I will never impose my atheism to you, so don't impose your religion to me.
As you will hopefully understand if you read this thread it is a part of my belief to 'impose' my beliefs on you as you put it. If I didn't do this, simply because you insist on it, I would have your beliefs and not mine and you would have imposed them on me, making your belief system self-inconsistent, therefore illogical, therefore wrong. So you'd better hope I don't do as you want or it would simply prove you wrong.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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All forms of argument have been misused for evil, twisted by evil people and turned inside out by those wishing to distort, destroy, bury or forget the truth. This is the fallen nature of man. The very argument you are using has been used to allow evil to go on without raising a finger to stop it. I have advocated no stake burning or in fact anything at all harmful to anyone except the straw man you are putting up to avoid having to deal with what I'm saying.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I have advocated no stake burning or in fact anything at all harmful to anyone except the straw man you are putting up to avoid having to deal with what I'm saying
Unfortunately Torquemada was no straw man but a very real creature, as sure of his redemption as you are of yours; as positive that he walked in God's grace, as you are; and using the same arguments against those who walked different paths that you do. He just had a power that, at least so far, has been denied you. For from avoiding what you are saying, I hear you very clearly. I just don't hear the angelic choir singing loudly enough to drown out the screams of those burned by the stake by others who said the same thing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Where was marriage invented by God? I'm genuinely curious, because my primary school religious instruction never covered it. The first mention I recall of it was when Cain went to Nod and found a wife.
It's right there in the early chapters of Genesis, a man will leave his parents and be joined to his wife, they will become one flesh. I don't have it in front of me. This is the basis and orgination of marriage. The ceremony and state recognition and everything we have added on top is simply an acknowledgement of a fact already recognised by God.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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As you will hopefully understand if you read this thread it is a part of my belief to 'impose' my beliefs on you as you put it. If I didn't do this, simply because you insist on it, I would have your beliefs and not mine and you would have imposed them on me, making your belief system self-inconsistent, therefore illogical, therefore wrong. So you'd better hope I don't do as you want or it would simply prove you wrong.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
You remind me of Red Stateler. He had the same circular reasoning that he thought proved him he was right.
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Based on your posts it seems you are missing the most important point. It has nothing to do with the truth (which is right and which is wrong, is God or not). It has only to do with that fact that this country was founded on the basis of freedom and religious freedom is a significantly important one. Now since not all of them can be 100% correct it is without question that the freedom you are entitled to as an American is not dependent on your beliefs being correct. Since we have the unalienable right to freedom, no one, not even a majority has the right to deny those freedoms. This aspect of our history is fundamental to Jeffersonian Principles and had a major impact on the Constitution and design of the checks and balances. Today there is a massive effort to destroy our founding principles by the religious right. What will happen? I have no idea what the future holds but the past is known.
led mike
led mike wrote:
Today there is a massive effort to destroy our founding principles by the religious right.
Hmm, I'm not sure it's the religious right who're going after your founding principles but the neo-conservative satanists who hide behind them have certainly been gong after your freedoms. One problem is the understanding of freedom itself and the difference between freedom and license. Total license says you can do anything you want even if that includes murdering your neighbour and raping his wife. My best take on the definition of freedom is that being free means knowing what is right and being able to do it. Total freedom would be always knowing what is right and always being able to do it, an unobtainable goal but a worthy one. The difference between the two is huge and yet many people confuse these ideas.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Oakman wrote:
God does not, cannot share His ineffable self with the like of you.
If you read the scripture you will find that that is precisely what he has done, even you can partake of Christ. It is the most amazing thing there is period.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
If you read the scripture
Do you read Aramaic? And Greek? Unless you do, you have never read the Scriptures.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
even you can partake of Christ
ROFL! I have probably munched on more unleavened crackers and cheap red wine than you have dreamed of. I was at least as much of a religious cannibal as you are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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led mike wrote:
What does that have to do with the making same sex marriage illegal?
A parallel to nurses who are required in some hospitals to assist with abortions. Not important to my thesis of course, so feel free to ignore it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I have advocated no stake burning or in fact anything at all harmful to anyone except the straw man you are putting up to avoid having to deal with what I'm saying
Unfortunately Torquemada was no straw man but a very real creature, as sure of his redemption as you are of yours; as positive that he walked in God's grace, as you are; and using the same arguments against those who walked different paths that you do. He just had a power that, at least so far, has been denied you. For from avoiding what you are saying, I hear you very clearly. I just don't hear the angelic choir singing loudly enough to drown out the screams of those burned by the stake by others who said the same thing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
as sure of his redemption as you are of yours; as positive that he walked in God's grace, as you are
You may assert this but it is unknowable.
Oakman wrote:
others who said the same thing.
I doubt they said the same things, or meant them if they did. Regardless, "by their deeds you shall know them", just because someone like Torquemada may have known the truth or spoken it unknowingly does not lessen the value of the truth itself. Is house painting unacceptable because it was Hitlers profession? No
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Oakman wrote:
Facts are verifiable. Beliefs or opinions are not.
I have already showed you that this is logically false so you're using bad definitions that can only lead to bad conclusions.
Oakman wrote:
So far you have shown no way to verify the existence of your god
Neither have I attempted to do that which cannot be done and is unnecessary.
Oakman wrote:
one you have already admitted may be a snare of the Antichrist.
That is simply a lie, or you simply can't read, go back and look again.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I have already showed you that this is logically false so you're using bad definitions that can only lead to bad conclusions.
Actually, the only thing you've shown is that you are either unwilling or unable to see outside your rather pathetic circular-reasoned view of the universe. And I have wasted as much time as I ever will in trying to help you see what the real world is like. Bye.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
If you read the scripture
Do you read Aramaic? And Greek? Unless you do, you have never read the Scriptures.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
even you can partake of Christ
ROFL! I have probably munched on more unleavened crackers and cheap red wine than you have dreamed of. I was at least as much of a religious cannibal as you are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Do you read Aramaic? And Greek? Unless you do, you have never read the Scriptures.
Nonsense, and you forgot Hebrew.
Oakman wrote:
have probably munched on more unleavened crackers and cheap red wine than you have dreamed of. I was at least as much of a religious cannibal as you are.
And yet you have no part in Christ so all you do is eat and drink judgement on yourself, how sad. :sigh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.