What is the present?
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Alison Pentland wrote: 'The Present' is infinitely small. Ahh, well there is the nugget of my problem. When they declared the Atom the building block of everything they thought they were right. Then someone showed that in fact an Atom is made up of smaller building blocks. At that point they thought that was as far as it went and that they had reached the ultimate "particle." Then someone discovered quarks and it's ilk. From that history I came to believe that everything is made up of something else, and that it never really stops. A quark is also made up of something surely? And whatever makes up a quark, is also made up of something else. And so on and so on. So infinitely small seems like a cop-out to me. As soon as you reach what we think is the smallest measure of the present, I am pretty sure we will find something smaller a year or two down the line. And if the present is infinitley small, that as we inspect it, it recedes further from us, what use is it to us? Ahh to have a mind and no answers! :-D Alison Pentland wrote: And I've just finished 'The Truth' -ing funny book. And I am going to pick up Thief of Time this Saturday. What a small world we live in! regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: Then someone discovered quarks and it's ilk. I think they guessed about this one, then someone opened up a bar, then suddenly there were Quarks everywhere Paresh Solanki Murphy’s Law (Mathematics): “If mathematically you end up with the incorrect answer, try multiplying by the page number”."
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Given that what we perceive as "the present" is actually delayed by the length of time it takes the brain to process the nerve impulses, the present is actually the recent past. As you move further away from an event, the speed of light causes "the present" to move further into the past. :wtf: :omg:
"I drink, therefore I am." René Descartes
Richard_D wrote: what we perceive as "the present" is actually delayed by the length of time it takes the brain to process the nerve impulses, the present is actually the recent past I was mulling over that too, not a nice thought at all. Reminds me of the explanation of the light-speed "barrier." We can never catch light as it is always leap frogging away in front of us. I can never catch the present because it is always receding into the past. Richard_D wrote: the speed of light How does the speed of light actually, physically, come into this? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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Where I work, it's really surreal One of the managers is the spitting image of Rincewind (as I imagine him), we have had various people 'fit' into the roles of Greebo, Corporal Carrot (Was still corporal when he left), Magrat Garlik, Nanny Ogg, Lord Vetinari, Death, Death of Mice, and Lady Sibyl Ramikin. Paresh Solanki Murphy’s Law (Mathematics): “If mathematically you end up with the incorrect answer, try multiplying by the page number”."
Paresh Solanki wrote: One of the managers is the spitting image of Rincewind Strange how Rincewind who basically kicked off the Discworld novels has faded out of existence. I enjoyed his pranks, but the later Discworlds are far better, much deeper and better from the lack of him. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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Richard_D wrote: what we perceive as "the present" is actually delayed by the length of time it takes the brain to process the nerve impulses, the present is actually the recent past I was mulling over that too, not a nice thought at all. Reminds me of the explanation of the light-speed "barrier." We can never catch light as it is always leap frogging away in front of us. I can never catch the present because it is always receding into the past. Richard_D wrote: the speed of light How does the speed of light actually, physically, come into this? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: We can never catch light as it is always leap frogging away in front of us Not always :-D Slowing the speed of light (I thought this was old news...) "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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I think the proper way to consider it is that we move through the dimension of time at the speed of light. "Now" is about as meaningful as "here" is when you are moving down a highway in a car. In a moving car you are never really "here". "Here" and "now" are continuously redefined - hence the concept of motion, through space or time. Given the limitation of having only two functional neurons, my understanding of this is all quite basic. However, I do believe that the only way you could ever experience a stable "now" is if you were to accelerate to the speed of light along a dimension other than the dimension of time. In that way, your travel through time would stop and you would be at a permanent "now", just as if you stopped all movement through the three known dimensions of space to experience the concept of "here". "Humans: The final chapter in the evolution of rats"
Reverend Stan wrote: I do believe that the only way you could ever experience a stable "now" is if you were to accelerate to the speed of light along a dimension other than the dimension of time Well, according to this article, all i need is my trusty bicycle... ;) "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"
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Ok so the debate yesterday on how replicating a cat would produce a dead cat got me to thinking about the present. What is it? The past and future are easy enough concepts to grasp, but I cannot get my mind around the present. Even though we bandy the concept around all the time, without thinking much about it I assume. To my understanding as soon as you define a timespan as the present, it becomes the past. Also how small or large is that timespan? A second, a minute a pico-second? A moment? Dictionary.com defines it as: pres·ent1 (prznt) n. A moment or period in time perceptible as intermediate between past and future; now So it is the period between our past and our future. Not much help really is it? And if you do not feel like talking about past, present and future... "The challenge of statesmanship is to have the vision to dream of a better, safer world and the courage, persistence and patience to turn that dream into reality." - Ronald Reagan Doesn't it seem as though the political system denies the ability to turn a dream into a reality? 4 years and then you are out unless you have done good and you are re-elected. But to do real good you need time, of which 4 years is not enough. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Defining the present is easy. It's now. No, wait, it's right now. No, wait for it, it's... etc etc etc. BTW, I did not read the thread, was it full of people making the same lame joke I did ? Christian come on all you MS suckups, defend your sugar-daddy now. - Chris Losinger - 11/07/2002
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Ok so the debate yesterday on how replicating a cat would produce a dead cat got me to thinking about the present. What is it? The past and future are easy enough concepts to grasp, but I cannot get my mind around the present. Even though we bandy the concept around all the time, without thinking much about it I assume. To my understanding as soon as you define a timespan as the present, it becomes the past. Also how small or large is that timespan? A second, a minute a pico-second? A moment? Dictionary.com defines it as: pres·ent1 (prznt) n. A moment or period in time perceptible as intermediate between past and future; now So it is the period between our past and our future. Not much help really is it? And if you do not feel like talking about past, present and future... "The challenge of statesmanship is to have the vision to dream of a better, safer world and the courage, persistence and patience to turn that dream into reality." - Ronald Reagan Doesn't it seem as though the political system denies the ability to turn a dream into a reality? 4 years and then you are out unless you have done good and you are re-elected. But to do real good you need time, of which 4 years is not enough. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Understanding the present is easy. Just step outside of time and look at the course of history as a long 1 dimensional line(length only, no height or width). Now look at a zero dimensional point moving along that line in one direction. This point has no length, width, or height. It's almost theoretical. But there it is sliding along the line of time. Now lean in and look at this one particular point and see the entire universe, everything that is happening everywhere at the very same time. Stop the point of *NOW*, and explore the entire universe at this one particular now. (You can see nothing or hear nothing because he motion of light and sound require time to pass for them to reach your eyes and ears.) Now step outside of time again and slide the point of *now* like a scroll bar to any point of history, two days ago for example. When you lean in and look around in this universe it is still "now" for all these people, including yourself if you should meet. If you started the now point sliding again the "Now" would move away from you and you would remain in "the past" frozen at that particular point in time, unless you reattached yourself to time and moved along with it, like a passenger getting into a vehicle. In theory, since time is 1 dimensional, you could step into the line of time and look with your eye all the way down the line to infinity. You would become omniscient. Everything that ever happened in every place would seem to be happening right now. It's hard to imagine, but remember that you are not currently in the "vehicle" of now. You are outside of it and are looking down the line of time, a line without width or height. It would not be like looking through a straw or a pipe or whatever, as that requires the passage of time to take in each event one by one in a stream. You would in fact percieve all events in every place as happening right *NOW*. In essense, the whole history of the universe is an endless collection or "nows". There is no past and no future. We simply ride through the "nows" one by one in this particular now. We percieve the infinite universe from this particular point in time the same way we percieve the universe from this particular place. But if you could be in every place, and in every time and experience it all as right here and now you would be truly omniscient. <Theology> This is how God sees the world. This is why he is able to forgive sinners based on what Jesus did on the cross 2000 years ago. As far as he's concerned it is happening right now. This is how he is
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Understanding the present is easy. Just step outside of time and look at the course of history as a long 1 dimensional line(length only, no height or width). Now look at a zero dimensional point moving along that line in one direction. This point has no length, width, or height. It's almost theoretical. But there it is sliding along the line of time. Now lean in and look at this one particular point and see the entire universe, everything that is happening everywhere at the very same time. Stop the point of *NOW*, and explore the entire universe at this one particular now. (You can see nothing or hear nothing because he motion of light and sound require time to pass for them to reach your eyes and ears.) Now step outside of time again and slide the point of *now* like a scroll bar to any point of history, two days ago for example. When you lean in and look around in this universe it is still "now" for all these people, including yourself if you should meet. If you started the now point sliding again the "Now" would move away from you and you would remain in "the past" frozen at that particular point in time, unless you reattached yourself to time and moved along with it, like a passenger getting into a vehicle. In theory, since time is 1 dimensional, you could step into the line of time and look with your eye all the way down the line to infinity. You would become omniscient. Everything that ever happened in every place would seem to be happening right now. It's hard to imagine, but remember that you are not currently in the "vehicle" of now. You are outside of it and are looking down the line of time, a line without width or height. It would not be like looking through a straw or a pipe or whatever, as that requires the passage of time to take in each event one by one in a stream. You would in fact percieve all events in every place as happening right *NOW*. In essense, the whole history of the universe is an endless collection or "nows". There is no past and no future. We simply ride through the "nows" one by one in this particular now. We percieve the infinite universe from this particular point in time the same way we percieve the universe from this particular place. But if you could be in every place, and in every time and experience it all as right here and now you would be truly omniscient. <Theology> This is how God sees the world. This is why he is able to forgive sinners based on what Jesus did on the cross 2000 years ago. As far as he's concerned it is happening right now. This is how he is
Great post, but one very minor quibble. ;P Being able to see anywhere at anytime doesn't automatically provide you with omniscience. There are still plenty of things you wouldn't know, like what all of the subatomic particles do (and how many there are for that matter). Yes, you would have all the "time" you needed to look at past events or to hunt through the entire universe at any given point in time, but you wouldn't exactly know everything. Now, aren't you glad I posted this? :) John
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Great post, but one very minor quibble. ;P Being able to see anywhere at anytime doesn't automatically provide you with omniscience. There are still plenty of things you wouldn't know, like what all of the subatomic particles do (and how many there are for that matter). Yes, you would have all the "time" you needed to look at past events or to hunt through the entire universe at any given point in time, but you wouldn't exactly know everything. Now, aren't you glad I posted this? :) John
Well obviously you are I lack that capacity to comprehend the entire universe at-a-glance in that way, even if we could see it. Our brains would probably disintegrate into sludge.... Good point though. By omniscience I meant seeing the universe at-a-glance, not necessarily comprehending it. :omg:
"I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?" -xterm
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Richard_D wrote: what we perceive as "the present" is actually delayed by the length of time it takes the brain to process the nerve impulses, the present is actually the recent past I was mulling over that too, not a nice thought at all. Reminds me of the explanation of the light-speed "barrier." We can never catch light as it is always leap frogging away in front of us. I can never catch the present because it is always receding into the past. Richard_D wrote: the speed of light How does the speed of light actually, physically, come into this? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: How does the speed of light actually, physically, come into this? Since light travels at a maximum speed which is finite, by the time the nerves in your eyeball receive the information, it is already in the past. So, even if your brain was able to process the information at the precise instant it reached your retina, you would still be looking at the past. As you move further away from an event, it takes longer for the information from that event to reach you, so what you perceive as "the present" is further in the past for a distant object than for a nearby one. For example, if you look at a distant supernova, it probably happened millions of years ago. If you saw our sun explode, it would only have happened eight minutes ago.
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Understanding the present is easy. Just step outside of time and look at the course of history as a long 1 dimensional line(length only, no height or width). Now look at a zero dimensional point moving along that line in one direction. This point has no length, width, or height. It's almost theoretical. But there it is sliding along the line of time. Now lean in and look at this one particular point and see the entire universe, everything that is happening everywhere at the very same time. Stop the point of *NOW*, and explore the entire universe at this one particular now. (You can see nothing or hear nothing because he motion of light and sound require time to pass for them to reach your eyes and ears.) Now step outside of time again and slide the point of *now* like a scroll bar to any point of history, two days ago for example. When you lean in and look around in this universe it is still "now" for all these people, including yourself if you should meet. If you started the now point sliding again the "Now" would move away from you and you would remain in "the past" frozen at that particular point in time, unless you reattached yourself to time and moved along with it, like a passenger getting into a vehicle. In theory, since time is 1 dimensional, you could step into the line of time and look with your eye all the way down the line to infinity. You would become omniscient. Everything that ever happened in every place would seem to be happening right now. It's hard to imagine, but remember that you are not currently in the "vehicle" of now. You are outside of it and are looking down the line of time, a line without width or height. It would not be like looking through a straw or a pipe or whatever, as that requires the passage of time to take in each event one by one in a stream. You would in fact percieve all events in every place as happening right *NOW*. In essense, the whole history of the universe is an endless collection or "nows". There is no past and no future. We simply ride through the "nows" one by one in this particular now. We percieve the infinite universe from this particular point in time the same way we percieve the universe from this particular place. But if you could be in every place, and in every time and experience it all as right here and now you would be truly omniscient. <Theology> This is how God sees the world. This is why he is able to forgive sinners based on what Jesus did on the cross 2000 years ago. As far as he's concerned it is happening right now. This is how he is
Wow! Six whole hours between the question being posted and someone trying to turn it into another religious debate! ;P
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Wow! Six whole hours between the question being posted and someone trying to turn it into another religious debate! ;P
Richard_D wrote: someone trying to turn it into another religious debate Not my intent. I'd rather it didn't turn into a debate actually. Just sharing some thoughts.
"I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?" -xterm
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Paul Watson wrote: How does the speed of light actually, physically, come into this? Since light travels at a maximum speed which is finite, by the time the nerves in your eyeball receive the information, it is already in the past. So, even if your brain was able to process the information at the precise instant it reached your retina, you would still be looking at the past. As you move further away from an event, it takes longer for the information from that event to reach you, so what you perceive as "the present" is further in the past for a distant object than for a nearby one. For example, if you look at a distant supernova, it probably happened millions of years ago. If you saw our sun explode, it would only have happened eight minutes ago.
Richard_D wrote: For example, if you look at a distant supernova, it probably happened millions of years ago. If you saw our sun explode, it would only have happened eight minutes ago. :rolleyes: I feel like an idiot for even asking the question. I thought you were tying light speed into a higher understanding of the present. ta regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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Reverend Stan wrote: I do believe that the only way you could ever experience a stable "now" is if you were to accelerate to the speed of light along a dimension other than the dimension of time Well, according to this article, all i need is my trusty bicycle... ;) "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"
A trusty bicycle and a really good winter coat! ;) "Humans: The final chapter in the evolution of rats"
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Ok so the debate yesterday on how replicating a cat would produce a dead cat got me to thinking about the present. What is it? The past and future are easy enough concepts to grasp, but I cannot get my mind around the present. Even though we bandy the concept around all the time, without thinking much about it I assume. To my understanding as soon as you define a timespan as the present, it becomes the past. Also how small or large is that timespan? A second, a minute a pico-second? A moment? Dictionary.com defines it as: pres·ent1 (prznt) n. A moment or period in time perceptible as intermediate between past and future; now So it is the period between our past and our future. Not much help really is it? And if you do not feel like talking about past, present and future... "The challenge of statesmanship is to have the vision to dream of a better, safer world and the courage, persistence and patience to turn that dream into reality." - Ronald Reagan Doesn't it seem as though the political system denies the ability to turn a dream into a reality? 4 years and then you are out unless you have done good and you are re-elected. But to do real good you need time, of which 4 years is not enough. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Look up the definition of a singularity. That is basically a one dimensional point. That is the present. it is a point in space/time. It is always changing but it is always where you are at on your current journey so to you it is static.. It can be predicted as the future and spread out to cover a larger area of probablity but when the area of probablity is reached it will still revert to being a point and not a waveform. Remember there are many futures but only one present. Choose carefully Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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If you are experiencing it...then it's the present. If you are remembering it...then it's the past. The future doesn't exist...you can only presently think about the future.
Theoretically speaking the past doesn't exist. There can be many futures and only one present. Entrophy cannot be reversed. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Understanding the present is easy. Just step outside of time and look at the course of history as a long 1 dimensional line(length only, no height or width). Now look at a zero dimensional point moving along that line in one direction. This point has no length, width, or height. It's almost theoretical. But there it is sliding along the line of time. Now lean in and look at this one particular point and see the entire universe, everything that is happening everywhere at the very same time. Stop the point of *NOW*, and explore the entire universe at this one particular now. (You can see nothing or hear nothing because he motion of light and sound require time to pass for them to reach your eyes and ears.) Now step outside of time again and slide the point of *now* like a scroll bar to any point of history, two days ago for example. When you lean in and look around in this universe it is still "now" for all these people, including yourself if you should meet. If you started the now point sliding again the "Now" would move away from you and you would remain in "the past" frozen at that particular point in time, unless you reattached yourself to time and moved along with it, like a passenger getting into a vehicle. In theory, since time is 1 dimensional, you could step into the line of time and look with your eye all the way down the line to infinity. You would become omniscient. Everything that ever happened in every place would seem to be happening right now. It's hard to imagine, but remember that you are not currently in the "vehicle" of now. You are outside of it and are looking down the line of time, a line without width or height. It would not be like looking through a straw or a pipe or whatever, as that requires the passage of time to take in each event one by one in a stream. You would in fact percieve all events in every place as happening right *NOW*. In essense, the whole history of the universe is an endless collection or "nows". There is no past and no future. We simply ride through the "nows" one by one in this particular now. We percieve the infinite universe from this particular point in time the same way we percieve the universe from this particular place. But if you could be in every place, and in every time and experience it all as right here and now you would be truly omniscient. <Theology> This is how God sees the world. This is why he is able to forgive sinners based on what Jesus did on the cross 2000 years ago. As far as he's concerned it is happening right now. This is how he is
Time is not 2 dimensional is it ? Also time can be different for any two observors. Plus the fact that time cannot exist in isolation. So if you are a little mixed up about a minor thing like time it may well indicate that your other predicates are also out of kilter. As the Romans used to say "Tempis fugit all the time" :) Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Reverend Stan wrote: In that way, your travel through time would stop and you would be at a permanent "now", But only relative to everything else, right? You yourself would still be experiencing time passage and therefore a past and future, wouldn't you? Is time really not just the view of the difference between one point and the next? Einstein was a great philospher! :-D And you, Reverand Stan, astound me as always. From this post you should tag on a Prof. to your name :) Reverend Stan wrote: In a moving car you are never really "here". "Here" and "now" are continuously redefined - hence the concept of motion, through space or time. Somehow the bullet-time sequences in The Matrix come to mind as I read that. Just imagining your viewpoint of a car suddenly stopping and swivelling around it, trying to define where "here" is for it and where it is at present (which changes for you as you swivel around it, but not for the car?) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: But only relative to everything else, right? You yourself would still be experiencing time passage and therefore a past and future, wouldn't you? It is my understanding that you would not. Consider the perception of time experienced by a photon being generated upon the sun and bouncing off your nose. To us, it took about 8 minutes for that photon to get from the sun to your nose. But how much time did the photon experience? None. At one instant it was born on the sun and at that very same instant it was colliding with your nose. To the photon there simply is no dimension of time, no past, no future, just now. Everything is just space, and the photon can "instantly" be at any two different points in space, regardless of the distance between them. Of course, to the rest of the universe many billions of years might have passed as the photon made its journey. The photon, having reached its destination would percieve, if it could, that it had moved instantly billions of miles across the universe and billions of years into the future. Paul Watson wrote: From this post you should tag on a Prof. to your name No, that would obligate me to actually know what I'm talking about instead of having the freedom to just make stuff up that my new found religious status provides to me. :-D "Humans: The final chapter in the evolution of rats"
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Theoretically speaking the past doesn't exist. There can be many futures and only one present. Entrophy cannot be reversed. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Maybe you are right...I guess that is the reason no one learns from history!
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Theoretically speaking the past doesn't exist. There can be many futures and only one present. Entrophy cannot be reversed. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Technically speaking, I didn't say the past existed...I just said that it is remembered.
