Level of Dross/Reputations
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Christian Graus wrote:
eah, and I'm sure that just the right UI will stop all programming questions to the lounge.
I'm trying to be "sensitive" toward the plight of the typical Indian programmer (whose first language isn't English). Besides, I've always been a proponent of changing the interface here. Someone else suggested a 30-day delay in the ability to post articles, but that will just keep the better programmers from registering. Maybe implementing some sort of rudimentary text checking to make sure the article a) contains text, and b) doesn't contain any of the text that is used in the boilerplate template presented in the article submission wizard, and c) contains MORE text than the boilerplate template (of course the stuff in the header tags would be omitted from this comparison).
Christian Graus wrote:
Face it, fact is that our industry has a lot more stupid people in it than used to be the case.
Yeah, I know, but just allowing it to happen without trying to address it is simply not acceptable. I know Chris et al have a lot of other crap to deal with, so I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and volunteer to help develop code to keep the bad guys at bay. I haven't seen anyone else step up like that - it seems most people just want to complain, or just shake their heads.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Maybe just disable the article submission wizard for IP's that originate from India. They ought to use email to submit the article, ensuring that an admin definitely has to atleast scan through the article before it gets posted here. But doing that may be politically incorrect since it's outright discrimination. But I'll accept it since I've seen the rubbish that gets posted, not that my opinion has any weight around here. I used to get upset when you duffed Indians at every opportunity you got, but looking at the questions asked and even the messages in the lounge, I simply had to accept that what you were saying is true, even though it's put across in a very harsh manner. But it doesn't go to say that every Indian programmer is like that. Unfortunately, it's only the duffers who surface more often. Blame the hiring practices and general decline in eduation here. But believe me, I've interviewed worse candidates.
SG Cause is effect concealed. Effect is cause revealed.
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I vote comments like yours a 1.
PeterTheGreat wrote:
How do we restore the reputation? Or Can we?
Stop complaining and write some quality articles yourself to raise the overall level of quality. You want to improve CP's reputation? Then start improving it. This is a site, afterall, where the quality of the site is 99% determined by the contributions of the people. The fact that I can contribute articles without going through a lengthy submittal process, and the fact that the members themselves moderate the articles is fantastic. Sure it has flaws, I get p.o'd like everyone else when I get a 1 vote, but overall, I think it's great. Marc
Marc - I've had to 5 this to make up for the idiots who don't realise that this is precisely the reason why this site is so great. You're spot on that the only way to improve things is to write quality articles. My first couple of articles were absolute stinkers - I'm not looking for contradiction, it's just a fact, but as you go on writing your articles improve and the overall level of quality articles should improve. If we move to a more moderated article approach then 2 things will happen: 1. People like myself will not get the chance to improve the quality of their writing because the first one will not make it past the censors. 2. The number of new articles will drop rapidly. More importantly, just because I find an article to be complete dross doesn't mean that everybody will - also it might just provide the spark I need to fix a problem I'm having or to write a better version of the article. Obviously this means that some real stinkers are going to slip through the net, but I'd rather read 20 bad articles and find a real gem at the end than read one article a month.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I vote comments like yours a 1.
PeterTheGreat wrote:
How do we restore the reputation? Or Can we?
Stop complaining and write some quality articles yourself to raise the overall level of quality. You want to improve CP's reputation? Then start improving it. This is a site, afterall, where the quality of the site is 99% determined by the contributions of the people. The fact that I can contribute articles without going through a lengthy submittal process, and the fact that the members themselves moderate the articles is fantastic. Sure it has flaws, I get p.o'd like everyone else when I get a 1 vote, but overall, I think it's great. Marc
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Marc - I've had to 5 this to make up for the idiots who don't realise that this is precisely the reason why this site is so great. You're spot on that the only way to improve things is to write quality articles. My first couple of articles were absolute stinkers - I'm not looking for contradiction, it's just a fact, but as you go on writing your articles improve and the overall level of quality articles should improve. If we move to a more moderated article approach then 2 things will happen: 1. People like myself will not get the chance to improve the quality of their writing because the first one will not make it past the censors. 2. The number of new articles will drop rapidly. More importantly, just because I find an article to be complete dross doesn't mean that everybody will - also it might just provide the spark I need to fix a problem I'm having or to write a better version of the article. Obviously this means that some real stinkers are going to slip through the net, but I'd rather read 20 bad articles and find a real gem at the end than read one article a month.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
So lets sail on happily with what we've got, just take a moment to reflect on the Recent Article Submission List and count the decent articles, lets on keep schtum. :sigh:
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Christian Graus wrote:
eah, and I'm sure that just the right UI will stop all programming questions to the lounge.
I'm trying to be "sensitive" toward the plight of the typical Indian programmer (whose first language isn't English). Besides, I've always been a proponent of changing the interface here. Someone else suggested a 30-day delay in the ability to post articles, but that will just keep the better programmers from registering. Maybe implementing some sort of rudimentary text checking to make sure the article a) contains text, and b) doesn't contain any of the text that is used in the boilerplate template presented in the article submission wizard, and c) contains MORE text than the boilerplate template (of course the stuff in the header tags would be omitted from this comparison).
Christian Graus wrote:
Face it, fact is that our industry has a lot more stupid people in it than used to be the case.
Yeah, I know, but just allowing it to happen without trying to address it is simply not acceptable. I know Chris et al have a lot of other crap to deal with, so I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and volunteer to help develop code to keep the bad guys at bay. I haven't seen anyone else step up like that - it seems most people just want to complain, or just shake their heads.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I agree with your approach: new authors should be on probation for the first 3 articles; if they use the Article Submission Wizard to post an article, it automatically gets routed to the editor's queue, just as if they had emailed it. If all of their first 3 articles are rejected, their account gets deleted. I would like to think that reporting articles, voting, etc., would take care of the problem, but that's like shoveling fleas in a barn - they are remedies, not solutions. We need to put up some screens to keep the fleas out.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Maybe just disable the article submission wizard for IP's that originate from India. They ought to use email to submit the article, ensuring that an admin definitely has to atleast scan through the article before it gets posted here. But doing that may be politically incorrect since it's outright discrimination. But I'll accept it since I've seen the rubbish that gets posted, not that my opinion has any weight around here. I used to get upset when you duffed Indians at every opportunity you got, but looking at the questions asked and even the messages in the lounge, I simply had to accept that what you were saying is true, even though it's put across in a very harsh manner. But it doesn't go to say that every Indian programmer is like that. Unfortunately, it's only the duffers who surface more often. Blame the hiring practices and general decline in eduation here. But believe me, I've interviewed worse candidates.
SG Cause is effect concealed. Effect is cause revealed.
SimulationofSai wrote:
But it doesn't go to say that every Indian programmer is
and that's true, it's the minority majority that seem to be spoiling for the good ones.
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I agree with your approach: new authors should be on probation for the first 3 articles; if they use the Article Submission Wizard to post an article, it automatically gets routed to the editor's queue, just as if they had emailed it. If all of their first 3 articles are rejected, their account gets deleted. I would like to think that reporting articles, voting, etc., would take care of the problem, but that's like shoveling fleas in a barn - they are remedies, not solutions. We need to put up some screens to keep the fleas out.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
So when will the good articles actually appear? The problem with this approach is that it relies on two things: 1. The editor not being overloaded with work. 2. There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is. The editors must all work to the same criteria otherwise this system will fail.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I think that a lot of Indians in particular, are looking for forms of certification, and are hoping to be able to say they have XX articles and/or hope to get the CP MVP award.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Perhaps the UI presented on the site needs to be re-thought.
Yeah, and I'm sure that just the right UI will stop all programming questions to the lounge. Face it, fact is that our industry has a lot more stupid people in it than used to be the case. There's not much we can do, but shake our heads.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
I think that a lot of Indians in particular, are looking for forms of certification, and are hoping to be able to say they have XX articles and/or hope to get the CP MVP award.
Most interviewers don't give a damn if the candidate has written articles in any website. And I've also seen that most do not give major weightage to certifications. Most know that a) Most folks here get certified ony for the reason to get certified and mostly use dumps b) I've seen cases where you can only start working on the project if have completed a X certification, and you have 1 week to write the exam c) Most guys work in a team, where there may be 1 or 2 knowledgeable individuals who drive the team. the rest of them ride on their shoulders and for the most part, don't know whats going on. It's unfortunate that this actually got translated to blaming a single country for the debacle. But the truth is, in most cases, bitter.
SG Cause is effect concealed. Effect is cause revealed.
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I agree with your approach: new authors should be on probation for the first 3 articles; if they use the Article Submission Wizard to post an article, it automatically gets routed to the editor's queue, just as if they had emailed it. If all of their first 3 articles are rejected, their account gets deleted. I would like to think that reporting articles, voting, etc., would take care of the problem, but that's like shoveling fleas in a barn - they are remedies, not solutions. We need to put up some screens to keep the fleas out.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
would like to think that reporting articles, voting, etc., would take care of the problem, but that's like shoveling fleas in a barn - they are remedies, not solutions. We need to put up some screens to keep the fleas out.
:) Hans, may I commend you on an excellent analogy.
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So when will the good articles actually appear? The problem with this approach is that it relies on two things: 1. The editor not being overloaded with work. 2. There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is. The editors must all work to the same criteria otherwise this system will fail.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
1. The editor not being overloaded with work.
Solution more non CP editors, like in the past.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is. The editors must all work to the same criteria otherwise this system will fail
Yes but there is a common criteria that should keep the duff articles at bay.
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The site has a voting system, you can use that to work out where the good articles are. I wonder if search allows you to specify a minimum rating you want matches to have ? That's a good idea.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I agree with your approach: new authors should be on probation for the first 3 articles; if they use the Article Submission Wizard to post an article, it automatically gets routed to the editor's queue, just as if they had emailed it. If all of their first 3 articles are rejected, their account gets deleted. I would like to think that reporting articles, voting, etc., would take care of the problem, but that's like shoveling fleas in a barn - they are remedies, not solutions. We need to put up some screens to keep the fleas out.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
It would be extremely fantastic if we could tie the CP article rating to google's page rank. That way, if I searched for a particular problem/article, CP would be on top only if it's internal rating is above a treshhold. This would make sure that users are not driven away from the site by sub standard articles that come on top of a search result. But I think page rank also factors in the popularity of the page, I guess. Just day dreaming here... :rolleyes:
SG Cause is effect concealed. Effect is cause revealed.
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I am finding that I am visiting Code Project less and less due to the level of utter dross posted by some article writers. Due to the high amount of substandard articles I am starting to wonder what the point in visiting is? (Just look at 3 out of the "ten most recent changes" to see my point) I feel Code Project is starting to get a reputation for substandard articles and a repository for coders of a questionable ability to post their "Resume enhancing" articles. This is worrying as I feel the creators of Code Project never intended for this to happen. How do we restore the reputation? Or Can we?
Aren't we taking a negative viewpoint here? Surely the question should be more along the lines of "How can we encourage people to post good articles?" It would probably be a lot more constructive and might actually end up with something that Chris would be happy to implement rather than carpet bombing "the dross".
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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So when will the good articles actually appear? The problem with this approach is that it relies on two things: 1. The editor not being overloaded with work. 2. There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is. The editors must all work to the same criteria otherwise this system will fail.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
1. The editor not being overloaded with work.
This would not be a full "edit" of the type that is used today to edit articles. It would be a checklist approach. It would be so simple that volunteer editors could take care of their section in only a few minutes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
2. There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is.
We're not talking quality here, we're talking about minimum requirements. Is the article just the boilerplate? Does it have a code download? Does it explain the code and how to use it? Really basic stuff. This would be a pass/fail test, not a judgment about the article's merits.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Aren't we taking a negative viewpoint here? Surely the question should be more along the lines of "How can we encourage people to post good articles?" It would probably be a lot more constructive and might actually end up with something that Chris would be happy to implement rather than carpet bombing "the dross".
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
We can post as many good articles as the site's servers can hold (believe me, I'm trying :) ), but that won't stop the crap from creeping in. When Chris calls for volunteer editors, I'm there.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Aren't we taking a negative viewpoint here? Surely the question should be more along the lines of "How can we encourage people to post good articles?" It would probably be a lot more constructive and might actually end up with something that Chris would be happy to implement rather than carpet bombing "the dross".
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Sometime you can't make a positive out of an extreme negative, the dross article need clamping down on, and maybe then people will start higrade submitting articles. The way I see it, is that your time in the limelight is shortened to minutes allow the dross ones to 'steal' the limelight. If you don't remove the dross, the problem will get worse, I've seen it over the years getting worse and worse. With CP attracting more visitors (some intend on using CP as a vehicle to 'prove' themselves) it's time to act before the recent list becomes one list of dross, day in, day out.
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Sometime you can't make a positive out of an extreme negative, the dross article need clamping down on, and maybe then people will start higrade submitting articles. The way I see it, is that your time in the limelight is shortened to minutes allow the dross ones to 'steal' the limelight. If you don't remove the dross, the problem will get worse, I've seen it over the years getting worse and worse. With CP attracting more visitors (some intend on using CP as a vehicle to 'prove' themselves) it's time to act before the recent list becomes one list of dross, day in, day out.
While I would love to see the dross being removed or limitations being put in, I'm extremely aware that Chris has been (and may continue to be) reluctant to implement something limiting because he wants to continue being a benign leader rather then Maunder the Merciless of Bobbo. I stand by my statement that my early articles (and some may say later ones as well) would probably not have made it past a minimum standard filter, and this might have discouraged me. I do agree that mechanisms should be put in place to remove articles that contain over 95% of the article template.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
1. The editor not being overloaded with work.
This would not be a full "edit" of the type that is used today to edit articles. It would be a checklist approach. It would be so simple that volunteer editors could take care of their section in only a few minutes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
2. There being a defined standard as to what an acceptable article is.
We're not talking quality here, we're talking about minimum requirements. Is the article just the boilerplate? Does it have a code download? Does it explain the code and how to use it? Really basic stuff. This would be a pass/fail test, not a judgment about the article's merits.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
Is the article just the boilerplate? Does it have a code download? Does it explain the code and how to use it?
Well - that's 4 of my articles out the window then. They aren't code articles, but rather fall into the scrapbook. I know it seems a bit nitpicky, but the point is that the rules here are open to finetuning - should the intended forum necessitate code? We have to be careful about how this is approached, otherwise the doors are slammed shut in peoples faces.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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While I would love to see the dross being removed or limitations being put in, I'm extremely aware that Chris has been (and may continue to be) reluctant to implement something limiting because he wants to continue being a benign leader rather then Maunder the Merciless of Bobbo. I stand by my statement that my early articles (and some may say later ones as well) would probably not have made it past a minimum standard filter, and this might have discouraged me. I do agree that mechanisms should be put in place to remove articles that contain over 95% of the article template.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I do agree that mechanisms should be put in place to remove articles that contain over 95% of the article template
Ah we're singing from the same hymn book. As I said early on in this discussion, it wouldn't be rocket science to but these measures in place, another thought would be to drop articles < 3? off the recent submission list (or as I like to refer to 'leaderboard'), this will prevent those seeking the spotlight. We both know whats going on India, too many novices trying to climb aboard the IT wagon and trying to use CP to boost their programming credintials.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I do agree that mechanisms should be put in place to remove articles that contain over 95% of the article template
Ah we're singing from the same hymn book. As I said early on in this discussion, it wouldn't be rocket science to but these measures in place, another thought would be to drop articles < 3? off the recent submission list (or as I like to refer to 'leaderboard'), this will prevent those seeking the spotlight. We both know whats going on India, too many novices trying to climb aboard the IT wagon and trying to use CP to boost their programming credintials.
I suppose I should have made myself clearer from the start. All "boilerplate" articles should be hunted down and removed before they even make it into the system. In other words, as soon as the "author" presses Submit, the system should check the article. The logic wouldn't be too hard - remove all HTML tags and all white space from the article (possibly even remove all vowels) - and then do a comparison to the template and reject the article if it isn't at least 95% different.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
