So, I always have these money making ideas but .... (long post)
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Just a comment on NDAs - just make sure that it is not so onerous that no-one will sign it. I almost never sign NDAs these days if they are not symmetrical - that is provide equal protection to both parties. These are almost always fair as the drafter has provided you with the same protection as their client. I would never sign an NDA that didn't allow for the fact that I may already know something, or that allowed me to take advantage of the information if it enters the public domain through no fault of my own, Just remember, folks will sign their life away if they stand to make zillions, but if it is a small product then the NDA may be a show-stopper. If it is not patentable then speed to market may be the essence of success.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
Good points and I never considered the symmetrical part. I would not be opposed to changing the language to support the public domain part and possibly even that they may already know something already. But, how do I know that they're not lying about that? I guess language could be put in to say they would need to provide written documentation at the time of my presentation or demonstration. I'm almost at the point where I'm almost asking to be screwed because I'm expecting it from larger corporations. In other words, I'm half thinking ditching the NDA and pitching it to the smaller private company and then doing something stupid like asking them to sign it afterwards. I also considered spending the money and have my NDA drafting attorney accompany me to the initial meeting/demonstration as a witness to said meeting and request that the NDA be signed at the conclusion but I'm almost positive no attorney would advise doing that.
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Good points and I never considered the symmetrical part. I would not be opposed to changing the language to support the public domain part and possibly even that they may already know something already. But, how do I know that they're not lying about that? I guess language could be put in to say they would need to provide written documentation at the time of my presentation or demonstration. I'm almost at the point where I'm almost asking to be screwed because I'm expecting it from larger corporations. In other words, I'm half thinking ditching the NDA and pitching it to the smaller private company and then doing something stupid like asking them to sign it afterwards. I also considered spending the money and have my NDA drafting attorney accompany me to the initial meeting/demonstration as a witness to said meeting and request that the NDA be signed at the conclusion but I'm almost positive no attorney would advise doing that.
If you disclose once without an NDA then you risk it not being patentable. Same goes for any public demonstration (need to consult with a patent attorney for the exact rules). It may be hard to get someone in a large corporation to sign it (make sure you send it in advance of your meeting) as it would have to go through their legal department and unless they think it is worth lots to them, they may not bother. Also, NDAs are like patents, they are only worth something if you can afford to defend them. I'm not trying to put you off, but to make money you need both a good idea and the means to get it to market. If you can't patent your idea and you don't have the means of getting it to market quickly before the competition catches up, it may be that no matter how good you consider the idea to be that you can't make much money from it.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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If you disclose once without an NDA then you risk it not being patentable. Same goes for any public demonstration (need to consult with a patent attorney for the exact rules). It may be hard to get someone in a large corporation to sign it (make sure you send it in advance of your meeting) as it would have to go through their legal department and unless they think it is worth lots to them, they may not bother. Also, NDAs are like patents, they are only worth something if you can afford to defend them. I'm not trying to put you off, but to make money you need both a good idea and the means to get it to market. If you can't patent your idea and you don't have the means of getting it to market quickly before the competition catches up, it may be that no matter how good you consider the idea to be that you can't make much money from it.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
I'm not trying to put you off, but to make money you need both a good idea and the means to get it to market. If you can't patent your idea and you don't have the means of getting it to market quickly before the competition catches up, it may be that no matter how good you consider the idea to be that you can't make much money from it.
Well said. This is why I'm thinking I should just accept that I could get screwed and perhaps just hope that the company I'm presenting to has some honesty or integrity. When you factor in how easy it is to violate these things and how hard they are to defend, it really doesn't seem worth it. I would rather approach a company and lose the idea to them, not intentionally, of course, then wake up 3 years from now and they're selling what I thought of manufacturing 8 years ago. At least something I thought of is in the market and if I'm lucky, I made or will be continuing to make money on. It's sad not to have enough money to compete but that's life and business. Thanks, for your input. I hope others have some helpful suggestions too.
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cp9876 wrote:
I'm not trying to put you off, but to make money you need both a good idea and the means to get it to market. If you can't patent your idea and you don't have the means of getting it to market quickly before the competition catches up, it may be that no matter how good you consider the idea to be that you can't make much money from it.
Well said. This is why I'm thinking I should just accept that I could get screwed and perhaps just hope that the company I'm presenting to has some honesty or integrity. When you factor in how easy it is to violate these things and how hard they are to defend, it really doesn't seem worth it. I would rather approach a company and lose the idea to them, not intentionally, of course, then wake up 3 years from now and they're selling what I thought of manufacturing 8 years ago. At least something I thought of is in the market and if I'm lucky, I made or will be continuing to make money on. It's sad not to have enough money to compete but that's life and business. Thanks, for your input. I hope others have some helpful suggestions too.
JohnnyG wrote:
Well said. This is why I'm thinking I should just accept that I could get screwed and perhaps just hope that the company I'm presenting to has some honesty or integrity.
In this day and age, don't count on that. I've lost many ideas because I talked about them freely to people I thought were trustworthy, had morals, etc. and then they claimed my ideas as their own. It's like a kick in the nuts! As soon as your idea is out there, just assume will be copied. Your best bet might be to have a solid product and promote your willingness to support, expand and maintain the product, (i.e. be there for the customer and convince them that it will be a lot harder to steal your idea and do it on their own).
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
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I never seem to actually follow through 100%. My friends all know about them and most agree that they are some good ideas but almost all take money to invest and usually a lot of software development time which I either don't have or don't want to risk. The reason I bring this up at all is, today, again just out of the blue (sort of), during a discussion, it occurred to me again, that I should just follow through on my 90% plus completed idea for a product. I've been mulling it over now and again every couple of months for the last year. The other reason I bring it up is perhaps some of you can suggest some avenues to pursue. Though, I haven't fully committed, I'm leaning in the direction that maybe I should just do it and not worry about how much money I'd make or not make. I've almost convinced myself that if it makes me $5K, $100K or some small residual for the life of the product, that I'd be happy. Also, the reason this particular product might make sense in pursuing, besides being related to the amount of money I could potentially make, is that I really don't have to invest much money and haven't invested much money to date (about $1300 USD). So, here's the skinny. I thought about developing this product almost 5 years ago. During that time I went to a patent attorney, who advised I didn't need a patent for several reasons, too long to get into here but one reason being the product wasn't patentable, it was just a different way of implementing or presenting the product. Basically, said that he or any other patent attorney can get me a patent but it really doesn't matter because people get patents that are not defensible in court all of the time and unless you have the money to go after a company who violates your possibly worthless patent, what could you do? So, next best thing was to get an attorney to write up a Non-Disclosure agreement which I did and of course I did all of the product manufacturing research including packaging up to date as of 5 years ago. I got estimates on what it would cost to make my product for everything excluding shipping to market in say quantities of 10-20k. Not too surprisingly, since my product implementation wasn't exactly patentable that meant that as soon as I got it into a store, provided I had the money to get some form of national market exposure, or even if I only got local market exposure, the idea would be stolen and implemented by competitors who, if I only had local market exposure, would kick my butt nationally. So, I'd be giving them my
Just face the fact: idea's are absolutely worthless. They have no value whatsoever. (In software development that is). What's valueble is the execution of your idea. People will pay for your software if it's better than the rest. So the only thing you can do is be your own investor and start developing a brilliant product. I know this sound harsh, and I can't say if you should take the risks. But it is what it is...
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cp9876 wrote:
I'm not trying to put you off, but to make money you need both a good idea and the means to get it to market. If you can't patent your idea and you don't have the means of getting it to market quickly before the competition catches up, it may be that no matter how good you consider the idea to be that you can't make much money from it.
Well said. This is why I'm thinking I should just accept that I could get screwed and perhaps just hope that the company I'm presenting to has some honesty or integrity. When you factor in how easy it is to violate these things and how hard they are to defend, it really doesn't seem worth it. I would rather approach a company and lose the idea to them, not intentionally, of course, then wake up 3 years from now and they're selling what I thought of manufacturing 8 years ago. At least something I thought of is in the market and if I'm lucky, I made or will be continuing to make money on. It's sad not to have enough money to compete but that's life and business. Thanks, for your input. I hope others have some helpful suggestions too.
If there is a chance that the product is patentable then you should consider lodging a provisional patent application. In Australia it costs $80 to lodge. You then have 12 months to go to the big guys and wave this around and see if any of them want to buy the rights to lodge the full application. Obviously the fewer you go to the better (preserves the element of surprise on the competition) so pick your first target carefully. It saves you the costs of the full application (although you still have this option), but as a patent has not been granted then it is generally worth less in the eyes of the buyer. Don't worry if the patent may be dubious, many an empire has been established on a dodgy patent. It may not be worth the competitor's time and money to challenge it in court.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
modified on Friday, April 11, 2008 3:01 AM
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Just face the fact: idea's are absolutely worthless. They have no value whatsoever. (In software development that is). What's valueble is the execution of your idea. People will pay for your software if it's better than the rest. So the only thing you can do is be your own investor and start developing a brilliant product. I know this sound harsh, and I can't say if you should take the risks. But it is what it is...
I must say that I agree with you on the software front but we all know that larger companies (with money) can get software patents for their technologies. However, I'm not sure if I was clear that I essentially have a working prototype, marketing materials to insert into packaging, etc. So, basically, take my product, modify it slightly if you'd like or change the packaging and marketing materials but I wouldn't, and run with it. In regards to other comments (not yours), this product is not going to make any company hundreds of millions of dollars a year but as I said if I get it into the market its easily copyable. So, right away I'd be competing against companies that already have shelf space for like minded products in national chains, as soon as they copy it they're simply eating up a tiny amount more of shelf space which I believe most stores won't object since they're already selling their products. Keep in mind that for these types of products, national chains only carry one manufacturer's products in their store and not two or three manufacturer's products. Me on the other hand have to convince them to get my product in right next to theirs (which mine I believe is vastly superior), overcome their objections to giving me shelf space for one product only when they already have a bunch of allocated space for a similar line of products, and then I have to convince them to keep mine on the shelf when the competitors finally distribute their version of my product. Basically, I'm saying no matter what, if I put into stores myself, I'm gonna get my butt kicked and that's reality. Five years ago I could have had the product manufactured for less than $1.50 per unit and could have done significantly better in quantities over 50k or by having China manufacture it (something like 70 cents). But keep in mind, I believe my price point is realistic based off of other similar products not in the exact target arena. Thus, a retail price of $8 - $12 USD, I believe is very realistic.
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I never seem to actually follow through 100%. My friends all know about them and most agree that they are some good ideas but almost all take money to invest and usually a lot of software development time which I either don't have or don't want to risk. The reason I bring this up at all is, today, again just out of the blue (sort of), during a discussion, it occurred to me again, that I should just follow through on my 90% plus completed idea for a product. I've been mulling it over now and again every couple of months for the last year. The other reason I bring it up is perhaps some of you can suggest some avenues to pursue. Though, I haven't fully committed, I'm leaning in the direction that maybe I should just do it and not worry about how much money I'd make or not make. I've almost convinced myself that if it makes me $5K, $100K or some small residual for the life of the product, that I'd be happy. Also, the reason this particular product might make sense in pursuing, besides being related to the amount of money I could potentially make, is that I really don't have to invest much money and haven't invested much money to date (about $1300 USD). So, here's the skinny. I thought about developing this product almost 5 years ago. During that time I went to a patent attorney, who advised I didn't need a patent for several reasons, too long to get into here but one reason being the product wasn't patentable, it was just a different way of implementing or presenting the product. Basically, said that he or any other patent attorney can get me a patent but it really doesn't matter because people get patents that are not defensible in court all of the time and unless you have the money to go after a company who violates your possibly worthless patent, what could you do? So, next best thing was to get an attorney to write up a Non-Disclosure agreement which I did and of course I did all of the product manufacturing research including packaging up to date as of 5 years ago. I got estimates on what it would cost to make my product for everything excluding shipping to market in say quantities of 10-20k. Not too surprisingly, since my product implementation wasn't exactly patentable that meant that as soon as I got it into a store, provided I had the money to get some form of national market exposure, or even if I only got local market exposure, the idea would be stolen and implemented by competitors who, if I only had local market exposure, would kick my butt nationally. So, I'd be giving them my
I know this sounds a little silly, but have you ever heard of a TV program called American Inventor? If your idea is a great idea and stands to make a lot of money (ie, usable by a majority of the population) they offer money to help get your product perfected, and then if you win they offer $100,000 plus many of the runner-ups have their products picked up by other companies. It's a possible consideration. I think you are in a pickle though. The NDA is probably going to hurt your chances of pitching your product to a company. Maybe if you just write someone very high up in the company a head of time and explain the situation. Tell them you have an idea you think has potential to make money. Tell him if he chooses to market your product you would only want a small royalty fee. Be honest and tell him you are nervous about pitching an idea and ask if he would be okay with signing an NDA before seeing the full presentation. Maybe send him a little teaser of information about your product to get him interested (if possible), like what problem it will solve for consumers. I'm not a business man, but that would be my guesses. You may just have to take a leap of faith that they won't try to screw you.
Broken Bokken http://www.brokenbokken.com
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I know this sounds a little silly, but have you ever heard of a TV program called American Inventor? If your idea is a great idea and stands to make a lot of money (ie, usable by a majority of the population) they offer money to help get your product perfected, and then if you win they offer $100,000 plus many of the runner-ups have their products picked up by other companies. It's a possible consideration. I think you are in a pickle though. The NDA is probably going to hurt your chances of pitching your product to a company. Maybe if you just write someone very high up in the company a head of time and explain the situation. Tell them you have an idea you think has potential to make money. Tell him if he chooses to market your product you would only want a small royalty fee. Be honest and tell him you are nervous about pitching an idea and ask if he would be okay with signing an NDA before seeing the full presentation. Maybe send him a little teaser of information about your product to get him interested (if possible), like what problem it will solve for consumers. I'm not a business man, but that would be my guesses. You may just have to take a leap of faith that they won't try to screw you.
Broken Bokken http://www.brokenbokken.com
Thanks, for your input, Josh. Yes, I had heard of that show before but never really checked it out. The real problem is this isn't like such an innovative idea that its going to make a ton of money. No, what it is, is an idea that can make more money in their particular line of products. Let's say for example that their line of products is placed between $1 - $10 retail. The more expensive products are more expensive because they offer more. My idea is in that category. Maybe their costs to make the $1 product is 15 cents or less and the cost to make their $10 product is 25 cents. They make much more money on their expensive product though they sell less. Again, my idea is in this same category except mine may cost say 90 cents to make and they may be able to make it for 25 cents. Since it will retail between $8 - $12, and I believe they will sell more than their $10 product, they'll make more overall revenue and profit.
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I never seem to actually follow through 100%. My friends all know about them and most agree that they are some good ideas but almost all take money to invest and usually a lot of software development time which I either don't have or don't want to risk. The reason I bring this up at all is, today, again just out of the blue (sort of), during a discussion, it occurred to me again, that I should just follow through on my 90% plus completed idea for a product. I've been mulling it over now and again every couple of months for the last year. The other reason I bring it up is perhaps some of you can suggest some avenues to pursue. Though, I haven't fully committed, I'm leaning in the direction that maybe I should just do it and not worry about how much money I'd make or not make. I've almost convinced myself that if it makes me $5K, $100K or some small residual for the life of the product, that I'd be happy. Also, the reason this particular product might make sense in pursuing, besides being related to the amount of money I could potentially make, is that I really don't have to invest much money and haven't invested much money to date (about $1300 USD). So, here's the skinny. I thought about developing this product almost 5 years ago. During that time I went to a patent attorney, who advised I didn't need a patent for several reasons, too long to get into here but one reason being the product wasn't patentable, it was just a different way of implementing or presenting the product. Basically, said that he or any other patent attorney can get me a patent but it really doesn't matter because people get patents that are not defensible in court all of the time and unless you have the money to go after a company who violates your possibly worthless patent, what could you do? So, next best thing was to get an attorney to write up a Non-Disclosure agreement which I did and of course I did all of the product manufacturing research including packaging up to date as of 5 years ago. I got estimates on what it would cost to make my product for everything excluding shipping to market in say quantities of 10-20k. Not too surprisingly, since my product implementation wasn't exactly patentable that meant that as soon as I got it into a store, provided I had the money to get some form of national market exposure, or even if I only got local market exposure, the idea would be stolen and implemented by competitors who, if I only had local market exposure, would kick my butt nationally. So, I'd be giving them my
I'm fairly close to the point now where I believe I'm just going to call them up and try to arrange a meeting where they can hear my pitch. Over the weekend I did a review on my production notes and costs and familiarized myself with all of the materials. At this point, I may be foregoing the NDA since after the review, I found out that I had at least two companies sign it and the 1 to 3 year no-compete clause has long since expired and I don't see anyone producing it. The two NDA's previously signed were for the packaging materials and assembly and for the manufacturing of the item. I've really got nothing to lose except my idea and as I've implied before, what good is an idea if no one is using it? Someone earlier commented about disclosing the idea without a NDA may make the idea un-patentable. As I recall when I had consulted earlier with my patent attorney, that doesn't apply except in the sense of public domain. Just because an idea isn't secret does not necessarily make it public domain. Typically, unless you have documented proof that you came up with an idea first, the first one to apply for and obtain a patent is the legal patent holder. A few people having knowledge of your idea does not make it public domain. Though, the danger is in the amount of people knowing of your idea, that one can potentially patent the idea before you do. Public domain is really in the broader sense -- i.e. posting a message on the Internet where many people can read it, common knowledge - like how to mix water and sugar together or change a tire, these are mentioned because people have been doing these things for more than 3-5 years (??) and so they are in the public domain since they weren't originally patented. Once its in the public domain for a specific time period (3-5 years, I think???) then you can't patent it.
