PhD and emplyment
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CodeManX wrote:
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go
Having talked to a couple of MBAs working at Starbucks I'm a little dubious of their value. I think the caliber of the school is all important, but even then predominantly so that you meet the right people with the right connections. If you have a pretend degree, such as flower arranging or media studies, then I can see an ROI. In the past when employment tenure measured in the decades, companies would pay their best to get better educated. Nowadays the best I’ve seen is perhaps 2-5% of the cost redeemed. If you already have a degree in an actual discipline and experience then I sincerely doubt there would be an ROI on what is a very expensive piece of paper. Most managers I’ve worked with do not have an MBA but instead proved themselves to be invaluable in what they do.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
The purpose of obtaining a B.S. degree is to open your mind. The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise. The Purpose of a PhD is to enhance your knowledge to the point where you are able to formulate a new view to that specific field which has not been built before or to reverse or enhance a certain view/position which was given in the field previously. Now, all of the Managers that I worked with and worked for all had higher degrees Mostly Master's degrees. IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems. You have to be able to correctly Identify a problem before you can propose a solution. The people that are in these positions usually hold a Master's degree or PhD. The people who they manage usually have a B.S. degree. Now, if you do not care about your job security and just want to remain a coder, than yes degrees and especially a PhD does not matter one bit. I personally value my profession much more than that and believe since we hold the keys to technological innovation, we should be held in a higher regard. Technology is the only field where it has a bearing on "everything" around it. Not even the field of medicine has that affect. Someone can avoid a doctor or taking a single pill all of their life but they cannot avoid walking through automatic doors, waiting at stop lights, or paying for an item at a cash register. All results of technological innovation. So, to say you don't need a higher degree, I say well, how far do you want you mind to be able to stretch?
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I think a PhD is a huge negative outside work in a government research institute. I won't hire computer science PhDs for the simple reason that I toss their resumes as soon as I see them. I've yet to work with a CS PhD that wasn't completely worthless; for every single one of them, programming was a weird intellectual process with little grounding in reality. Only one programmer I respect has ever hired a PhD. He immediately regretted it and ended up firing the guy six months later. Now, if you are still interested in the intellectual side of computer science and would rather teach than do, I still suggest getting several years of real world experience, and then getting your PhD. (I think it actually should be mandatory that people get real work experience before embarking on post-graduate work.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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The purpose of obtaining a B.S. degree is to open your mind. The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise. The Purpose of a PhD is to enhance your knowledge to the point where you are able to formulate a new view to that specific field which has not been built before or to reverse or enhance a certain view/position which was given in the field previously. Now, all of the Managers that I worked with and worked for all had higher degrees Mostly Master's degrees. IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems. You have to be able to correctly Identify a problem before you can propose a solution. The people that are in these positions usually hold a Master's degree or PhD. The people who they manage usually have a B.S. degree. Now, if you do not care about your job security and just want to remain a coder, than yes degrees and especially a PhD does not matter one bit. I personally value my profession much more than that and believe since we hold the keys to technological innovation, we should be held in a higher regard. Technology is the only field where it has a bearing on "everything" around it. Not even the field of medicine has that affect. Someone can avoid a doctor or taking a single pill all of their life but they cannot avoid walking through automatic doors, waiting at stop lights, or paying for an item at a cash register. All results of technological innovation. So, to say you don't need a higher degree, I say well, how far do you want you mind to be able to stretch?
CodeManX wrote:
IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems
CodeManX wrote:
The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise
These two are at odds. In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions. A business related Master my provide a theoretical framework, but only experience will give you the tools to truly take on the task. And experience is granted by ones proven ability. I'll concede larger organization like their senior management to have MBAs. In my experience this is not the case in smaller organizations. Obviously in other disciplines such as finance, an MBA is almost a rite-of-passage.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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david_f_knight wrote:
First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem.
I find this quite amusing, for personal reasons. Since earning my PhD in physics, I went on to develop accounting applications. My roommate, who went through the same program, went on to develop MRI equipment. I found my PhD to be helpful, but not in the career-advancing sense. My career would almost certainly have moved more quickly if I had spent those four years in the workforce rather than academia. But I find that my experience in science does give me an approach to problem-solving that occasionally gives me an advantage over my peers. If my degree had been in CS, I'm not sure whether that would still be the case. Also, I've taken advantage of my degree to take the occasional break from IT to teach university courses. That's much harder to do without the PhD!
By saying that having a PhD might be a big problem if you want to develop accounting applications, I meant it specifically in the context of getting an employer to hire you, not in any more general sense. I'd never argue that having less education is better than having more! But do all employers value it equally? I don't think so. It's a question of optimizing finite resources for maximum personal benefit. There are many ways to evaluate the potential benefit of further education, such as personal satisfaction, career flexibility and opportunity, lifetime earnings, professional capabilities, and cash flow (earning money working sooner vs. increasing debt funding more education). My take on it is this: if you want to be a generalist or don't have a driving interest in any particular specialization, don't get a PhD. But if you want to be an authority on some specific field, be a researcher, or be on the faculty of a university, getting a PhD may well be the best (or only) way to get there.
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CodeManX wrote:
IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems
CodeManX wrote:
The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise
These two are at odds. In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions. A business related Master my provide a theoretical framework, but only experience will give you the tools to truly take on the task. And experience is granted by ones proven ability. I'll concede larger organization like their senior management to have MBAs. In my experience this is not the case in smaller organizations. Obviously in other disciplines such as finance, an MBA is almost a rite-of-passage.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
MidwestLimey wrote:
In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions.
I agree with you that a Master degree does not automatically make you capable of proposing and applying effective business decision. I haven’t stated that by achieving a Master's degree you will automatically be able to solve many organizational problems. But, having the invaluable tools to know how to approach different areas of problems is invaluable. You can give a painter the best brushes in this world, but that does not ensure that the painting will be a master piece. So, I do agree with you that just having the degree does not qualify you as a master organizational problem solver. I will also agree with you on experience. Experience is also invaluable. I know this first-hand as probably you do as well. I started coding in visual basic in the 8th grade. Now, honestly I didn't have to go to college, obtain a few degrees to solidify myself as an good programmer. But, having done so, I was exposed to C++, MIPS, Unix(Solaris), Ada, and many other languages that a few I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to explore on my own. And by experiencing different issues with every one of those technologies/languages I have a better understanding of the best ways to write a class, stored procedure, constructor and so on. I am saying that the classroom experiences also contributed to my real-world experiences. It may be different for other, but for me, it has been very beneficial. This can be true for many professions. Take a medical doctor for instance. They go through years of schooling to learn fundamentals and theories/case studies in medicine. But, all of that schooling with out real-world knowledge is nothing. Yet also, real-world knowledge without a strong base and knowledge of "why" would not be beneficial to solving any patient's problem. "I like to know why things work, not just that they do work".
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CodeManX wrote:
IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems
CodeManX wrote:
The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise
These two are at odds. In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions. A business related Master my provide a theoretical framework, but only experience will give you the tools to truly take on the task. And experience is granted by ones proven ability. I'll concede larger organization like their senior management to have MBAs. In my experience this is not the case in smaller organizations. Obviously in other disciplines such as finance, an MBA is almost a rite-of-passage.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
That is a good question, regarding getting a doctorate. Its really a question of what has value in the eyes of the people who will matter to you. A Ph.d. is a research degree. Its designed to prove you have the ability to conduct valid research into your field of study and to advance the field through the discovery of new knowledge. In the eyes of a research oriented business or university, it would be seen as valuable and would help your career path. But if you are aiming to run an IT department or be a full time programmer or such, you'd be better off doing the degree in IT/degree in business route. A Ph.d will prepare you for research and for academic studies, which isn't a bad way to go by the way. A masters in business with a degree in IT + real world experience will advance your career path in the business world. Also, a lot of univerities will laugh at Ph.d.s minted from non-acredited instutions. I think this is snobbery, but its still true. I did my doctorate a while back and thoroughly enjoyed the studies. But then went out and started an IT business. Went back to get my MBA to help me learn to run a business. Go figure.
Tom Christensen www.actiondigital.com
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Personally, as an employer I wouldn't hire a young programmer fresh out of college or university with *any* level of degree. I value people as employees with real world experience, grit, determination and a proven ability to get things done in the real world even if it's not programming related. I've never seen that from any recent graduate who ever interviewed for me. Most seemed in a state of arrested development where they had never really had to survive on their own anywhere, straight from high school to college or university, still being looked after in many respects, never got to go out and live a little and be "seasoned" in the world so they had a purpose in life. Professional dilletantes most of them. That being said, being as objective as I possibly can, I imagine many employers would shy away from someone with too much academic experience partly for the same reasons I do but mostly because they would see that person as being a short term employee who has too much credentials to keep at a job that doesn't require that level of education.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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That is a good question, regarding getting a doctorate. Its really a question of what has value in the eyes of the people who will matter to you. A Ph.d. is a research degree. Its designed to prove you have the ability to conduct valid research into your field of study and to advance the field through the discovery of new knowledge. In the eyes of a research oriented business or university, it would be seen as valuable and would help your career path. But if you are aiming to run an IT department or be a full time programmer or such, you'd be better off doing the degree in IT/degree in business route. A Ph.d will prepare you for research and for academic studies, which isn't a bad way to go by the way. A masters in business with a degree in IT + real world experience will advance your career path in the business world. Also, a lot of univerities will laugh at Ph.d.s minted from non-acredited instutions. I think this is snobbery, but its still true. I did my doctorate a while back and thoroughly enjoyed the studies. But then went out and started an IT business. Went back to get my MBA to help me learn to run a business. Go figure.
Tom Christensen www.actiondigital.com
TGC123 wrote:
But then went out and started an IT business. Went back to get my MBA to help me learn to run a business.
Strikes me as a great way to do it. I would imagine you got more from the MBA having had the related experience then going in cold.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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MidwestLimey wrote:
In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions.
I agree with you that a Master degree does not automatically make you capable of proposing and applying effective business decision. I haven’t stated that by achieving a Master's degree you will automatically be able to solve many organizational problems. But, having the invaluable tools to know how to approach different areas of problems is invaluable. You can give a painter the best brushes in this world, but that does not ensure that the painting will be a master piece. So, I do agree with you that just having the degree does not qualify you as a master organizational problem solver. I will also agree with you on experience. Experience is also invaluable. I know this first-hand as probably you do as well. I started coding in visual basic in the 8th grade. Now, honestly I didn't have to go to college, obtain a few degrees to solidify myself as an good programmer. But, having done so, I was exposed to C++, MIPS, Unix(Solaris), Ada, and many other languages that a few I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to explore on my own. And by experiencing different issues with every one of those technologies/languages I have a better understanding of the best ways to write a class, stored procedure, constructor and so on. I am saying that the classroom experiences also contributed to my real-world experiences. It may be different for other, but for me, it has been very beneficial. This can be true for many professions. Take a medical doctor for instance. They go through years of schooling to learn fundamentals and theories/case studies in medicine. But, all of that schooling with out real-world knowledge is nothing. Yet also, real-world knowledge without a strong base and knowledge of "why" would not be beneficial to solving any patient's problem. "I like to know why things work, not just that they do work".
Seems we agree on more then we disagree on then. Academia does indeed broaden the mind, and I loved my uni days. If I could justify returning for my Masters I would. This field seems to be one of those where it isn't required but is a nice addition.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I have been a professional programmer for 30 years. I have a bachelors in IS and an MBA (I finished my masters 8 years after my bachelors). I'm currently pursuing a Masters in CS (with the hope of continuing on for a PhD in CS). The CS degrees are purely for fun (since they will do nothing for my career). Getting a bachelors and masters are important (assuming you apply yourself and aren't getting the degrees for the sake of having the degrees). Experience is equally important. I probably learned more about the software business in my first year out of school than I learned in four years of college. Even if you stop going to college, you'll spend the rest of your career learning new things (our industry changes a lot, and often). If you want to do research, pursue a PhD. You'll probably end up doing this in a University or some kind of think tank. If you want to work in industry, stop after your masters and get a job. My current company doesn't even offer tuition reimbursement for education at the PhD level (which means they don't believe it to be very useful).
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
In the places I work, here in the US, CS is considered a vocational endeavor, like automobile repair. Many of the people I work with minor in CS, or do CS as and adjunct to their 'real work'. Most of the people I work with are statisticians first CS second, or Electrical Engineer first, or Project Manager first, CS is tool/methodolgy to doing thier work. I don't like but that's just the way it is in my universe. Your mileage may vary...
MrPlankton
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I guess it depends what you want to do... Do you want to move into research, development, manufacturing, ...? Do you want to do what you want or what the market needs? Do you want to work abroad (usually the higher the academic degree the more "points" you get). I have a master's in engineering and this helped me work abroad as I wanted. After 15 years or so of this, I am considering completing a PhD mostly for personal satisfaction. There is also the "time-to-market" to consider. There are periods where a newbe with solely academic credentials will have difficulties to find a job. Then maybe it is a good idea to consider further training/degree. When comes the time to hire, I don't care much if the candidate has a bachelor/master's/doctorate degree. I base myself on other criterias.
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The purpose of obtaining a B.S. degree is to open your mind. The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise. The Purpose of a PhD is to enhance your knowledge to the point where you are able to formulate a new view to that specific field which has not been built before or to reverse or enhance a certain view/position which was given in the field previously. Now, all of the Managers that I worked with and worked for all had higher degrees Mostly Master's degrees. IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems. You have to be able to correctly Identify a problem before you can propose a solution. The people that are in these positions usually hold a Master's degree or PhD. The people who they manage usually have a B.S. degree. Now, if you do not care about your job security and just want to remain a coder, than yes degrees and especially a PhD does not matter one bit. I personally value my profession much more than that and believe since we hold the keys to technological innovation, we should be held in a higher regard. Technology is the only field where it has a bearing on "everything" around it. Not even the field of medicine has that affect. Someone can avoid a doctor or taking a single pill all of their life but they cannot avoid walking through automatic doors, waiting at stop lights, or paying for an item at a cash register. All results of technological innovation. So, to say you don't need a higher degree, I say well, how far do you want you mind to be able to stretch?
I say, a mighty response that deserves a standing ovation, a well phrased answer from you. Well done. :) :) :) :-D
AlbertDadze
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I don't have a PhD, but most of the people in the place where I work do. A PhD is essential for an academic career, but if you start being an academic it is usually possible to bale out and go in to industry as long as you don't mind starting at the bottom. Once you are in industry however it is very difficult to get back into academia. The PhD will get you some job interviews and gives companies a good feeling about how smart you are. It is generally true that over a lifetime a PhD will leave you worse off - you never earn enough more than people with ordinary degrees to make back the three or four years it takes to get one. Several people I know did a PhD, several years postdoctoral work and then got into software because they wanted a proper job with decent pay and sensible hours so they could settle down. I started a PhD but baled out in the first year as I realised it wasn't for me, some of those with one have said they wish they had done the same thing. That said. If you fancy being an academic, or you just want the experience of working in research then you should do it for yourself. Just don't have any illusions that it is going to make a big difference (either way) to any non-academic career you may eventually end up in.
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MidwestLimey wrote:
In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions.
I agree with you that a Master degree does not automatically make you capable of proposing and applying effective business decision. I haven’t stated that by achieving a Master's degree you will automatically be able to solve many organizational problems. But, having the invaluable tools to know how to approach different areas of problems is invaluable. You can give a painter the best brushes in this world, but that does not ensure that the painting will be a master piece. So, I do agree with you that just having the degree does not qualify you as a master organizational problem solver. I will also agree with you on experience. Experience is also invaluable. I know this first-hand as probably you do as well. I started coding in visual basic in the 8th grade. Now, honestly I didn't have to go to college, obtain a few degrees to solidify myself as an good programmer. But, having done so, I was exposed to C++, MIPS, Unix(Solaris), Ada, and many other languages that a few I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to explore on my own. And by experiencing different issues with every one of those technologies/languages I have a better understanding of the best ways to write a class, stored procedure, constructor and so on. I am saying that the classroom experiences also contributed to my real-world experiences. It may be different for other, but for me, it has been very beneficial. This can be true for many professions. Take a medical doctor for instance. They go through years of schooling to learn fundamentals and theories/case studies in medicine. But, all of that schooling with out real-world knowledge is nothing. Yet also, real-world knowledge without a strong base and knowledge of "why" would not be beneficial to solving any patient's problem. "I like to know why things work, not just that they do work".
I'm a prof in the CS department at a big university who is unusually interested in how real people actually build real things, which is why I follow this site. Sorry if I sound like a prof - it's an occupational hazard. In a field like CS, the BS or MS degrees are oriented to prepare people for doing real work. The wiser profs know that at most they can help people get a good start; most of the knowledge and skills will be acquired on the job. In contrast, the PhD is a research degree - the goal is to demonstrate that you are capable of adding to the academic or theoretical content of the field, by doing a piece of "original research" under the guidance of experienced researchers, the faculty. In CS, "research" generally is supposed to be theoretical or methodological advances, not solutions to specific practical problems - it's the opposite of product development. One usually ends up being hyper-specialized, and often with few practical skills beyond those you got at the BS or MS level. The jobs PhD holders are thus being prepared for are researchy jobs - like high-level R&D, or being a university research prof (if you also like to teach). In other words, don't expect to gain practical software development wisdom from getting a PhD. Also, you don't get a PhD to make more money - it requires a great amount of thought and determination to get the PhD; the same effort applied more directly in the work world will usually produce a much higher income - especially by taking on management responsibilities. Rather you get a PhD because you want to spend more of your time on research problems - which not everybody likes to do. The problem with trying to discover new knowledge is that you fail much more often than you succeed, which is frustrating - you have to be a least somewhat strange to actually enjoy this. This means that most people who like to actually build useful or fun systems will profit most with the BS or MS degree together with learning as much as possible from the best people in the field - who are usually not academics.