OutSourcing is great for the American Developer- Fact or Fiction
-
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
Outsourcing is fine, I've worked on many an outsourced project and the bill rates tend to be nice. Offshoring is a mixed bag, I've worked with various overseas teams in India and Thailand. Some 5 or 6 years ago I would have said I was nervous, the overseas talent I had the pleasure of working (and in most cases it was a plesure) was every bit as good as here. The price difference was unbeatable. Come to present day and between wage inflation, a weak dollar and property booms in India and to a lesser degree elsewhere I find myself less nervous. The price differential is narrowing, much as predicted and I get the feeling that talent is as hard to find in India as elsewhere. In the past if you paid peanuts you got Physics PhD, now, well take a look at some of our forums. In the current climate I would find it hard to believe that the overall costs of shipping large segments of the company overseas would garner much of a savings. Thankfully I think the age of the "Must have Offshore project" mantra has passed. Lets hope cold, hard economics is the driving factor now, in which case America is still extrordinarily efficient.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
-
It depends.... if you're a shareholder of the company, outsourcing means lower costs/higher profits. If you're an employee well... no job.... Question: Are American companies obligated to employ Americans?
SilimSayo wrote:
Question: Are American companies obligated to employ Americans?
No not in today's global economy. They should not hire just Americans to do the job. At the same time, should they ship 75-80% of those jobs in question overseas being an American company? It's great idea if you are a shareholder, just as you mentioned. But, that revenue that was generated and spent in America, thus helping the economy, has now disappeared slowly thus giving way to a failing economy. No genertaion of revenue equals a poorer society. Imagine if 70% of organization outsourced their jobs overseas. If that happen, internal revenue decreases, debts to other countries grow larger, internal spending decreases, prices increases; does any of this sound familiar to any Americans? Can you say 2nd world country?
"Building a better future one class at a time"
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
(applicable to North America, Western Europe, Australia, New-Zealand and a few other places, also applicable to non IT business). It's bad because it does not only sends "brains" away, it also stops economic growth in various accessory domain of business. For 1 good IT ( or pharmacist, chemist, doctors, accountants ... ) you can have a lot of other people doing business with them ( merchant, grocers, restaurant chef, repairmen, builders, ... ). People tend to think that it only affect IT workers, but it affect a lot of people. And most important, it sends a bad message to the youth that even if you study hard in university, your job will probably be shipped in India or China.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
-
It depends.... if you're a shareholder of the company, outsourcing means lower costs/higher profits. If you're an employee well... no job.... Question: Are American companies obligated to employ Americans?
SilimSayo wrote:
outsourcing means lower costs/higher profits
I'd agree with lower costs. Higher profits? Maybe in the short term. In the long term it becomes an expense item when it needs to be re-done. A lot of that "cheap" money becomes dead money with what's delivered and the fact that it wasn't the expectation nor business need. Ask Michael Dell why he cut off the off-shoring. And that was just call center stuff.
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
One could write a dissertation subject. Global vs. local economy, analysis of actual cost benefits to the business, short term vs. long term investment/gains, the further economic stratification of society, emerging markets, company loyalty, cost of business in America (taxes, health care, labor laws, etc), shareholder pressure, global market competition, intellectual property, security, transfer of knowledge, the educational system, etc. However, the short answer, from my perspective as a software developer: Screw the dissertation. Outsourcing sucks. Marc
-
One could write a dissertation subject. Global vs. local economy, analysis of actual cost benefits to the business, short term vs. long term investment/gains, the further economic stratification of society, emerging markets, company loyalty, cost of business in America (taxes, health care, labor laws, etc), shareholder pressure, global market competition, intellectual property, security, transfer of knowledge, the educational system, etc. However, the short answer, from my perspective as a software developer: Screw the dissertation. Outsourcing sucks. Marc
-
One could write a dissertation subject. Global vs. local economy, analysis of actual cost benefits to the business, short term vs. long term investment/gains, the further economic stratification of society, emerging markets, company loyalty, cost of business in America (taxes, health care, labor laws, etc), shareholder pressure, global market competition, intellectual property, security, transfer of knowledge, the educational system, etc. However, the short answer, from my perspective as a software developer: Screw the dissertation. Outsourcing sucks. Marc
Ah, brutal honesty, love it
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
My primary line of business is cleaning up the mess left behind from incompetent teams.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
SilimSayo wrote:
Question: Are American companies obligated to employ Americans?
No not in today's global economy. They should not hire just Americans to do the job. At the same time, should they ship 75-80% of those jobs in question overseas being an American company? It's great idea if you are a shareholder, just as you mentioned. But, that revenue that was generated and spent in America, thus helping the economy, has now disappeared slowly thus giving way to a failing economy. No genertaion of revenue equals a poorer society. Imagine if 70% of organization outsourced their jobs overseas. If that happen, internal revenue decreases, debts to other countries grow larger, internal spending decreases, prices increases; does any of this sound familiar to any Americans? Can you say 2nd world country?
"Building a better future one class at a time"
I'll just rebalance at some new equilibrium. Foreign car makers are now putting up new plants in the US because it's getting more affordable to do so. The ball just rolls to the lowest point, and there'll always be a lowest point somewhere.
Wout
-
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
unless of course you realize that most americans are more concerned about cost over quality.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
-
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Unfortunately, quality and cost/hr are totally decoupled in the minds of the decision makers. And ironically, the "quality" of management vs. their cost/hr is not something WE, as the lowly employee, have any say over. Funny how that works, isn't it? Marc
-
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Unfortunately, quality and cost/hr are totally decoupled in the minds of the decision makers. And ironically, the "quality" of management vs. their cost/hr is not something WE, as the lowly employee, have any say over. Funny how that works, isn't it? Marc
always trying to out-do me in the forums aren't you.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
-
Given the economical climate in America today, what are the general feelings about most companies shipping their entire operations overseas and essentially placing the American expertise in the field of software development/engineering in jeopardy?
After personally seeing the quality of some of the outsourced software development work done here in Southeast Asia, you have nothing to worry about. The average level of experience required to be considered "senior" developer level is only three years, and the recruiters here can't seem to find or hire[^] developers who have more than five years of experience. To give you an idea of just how incompetent some of the devs here are, I've run into so-called senior "developers" working in the BPO/Outsourcing industry who claimed to practice "agile techniques" and yet when I went their actual source code (which, btw, claimed to use TDD), I only found ONE test case. As much as I'd like to say that was just an exception, I'm starting to be convinced more and more that it's just the standard practice here in SE Asia. In other words, you get what you pay for. With that in mind, the developers in the U.S. might be more costly, but the cost/quality tradeoff applies there as well. You might pay more to get your development work done in the U.S., but you can throw a rock in any direction and find at least more than a handful of good developers with more than five years of experience in almost any state. If the U.S. can compete when it comes to quality software development, then the only developers whose job will be at stake will be the ones that really, really suck. When the U.S. job market rids itself of the developers that can't do quality work, then everyone benefits because the senior devs that do their job well get to keep their jobs, and the lower-quality developers (i.e., the ones that submit one-rated article templates for the article submission queue) will be forced to find work in other more suitable fields, such as "knitting". So if you're a dev in the U.S. job market right now, your only recourse is to constantly improve the quality of your own work. Otherwise, if there's someone out there in some other country who can do the same quality of work as you can for half the price, then there's nothing stopping your employer from pulling the rug from under you. It's only "bad" for the American developer if they keep themselves isolated and they get complacent with their skills. It can be great if and only if you can ke
-
After personally seeing the quality of some of the outsourced software development work done here in Southeast Asia, you have nothing to worry about. The average level of experience required to be considered "senior" developer level is only three years, and the recruiters here can't seem to find or hire[^] developers who have more than five years of experience. To give you an idea of just how incompetent some of the devs here are, I've run into so-called senior "developers" working in the BPO/Outsourcing industry who claimed to practice "agile techniques" and yet when I went their actual source code (which, btw, claimed to use TDD), I only found ONE test case. As much as I'd like to say that was just an exception, I'm starting to be convinced more and more that it's just the standard practice here in SE Asia. In other words, you get what you pay for. With that in mind, the developers in the U.S. might be more costly, but the cost/quality tradeoff applies there as well. You might pay more to get your development work done in the U.S., but you can throw a rock in any direction and find at least more than a handful of good developers with more than five years of experience in almost any state. If the U.S. can compete when it comes to quality software development, then the only developers whose job will be at stake will be the ones that really, really suck. When the U.S. job market rids itself of the developers that can't do quality work, then everyone benefits because the senior devs that do their job well get to keep their jobs, and the lower-quality developers (i.e., the ones that submit one-rated article templates for the article submission queue) will be forced to find work in other more suitable fields, such as "knitting". So if you're a dev in the U.S. job market right now, your only recourse is to constantly improve the quality of your own work. Otherwise, if there's someone out there in some other country who can do the same quality of work as you can for half the price, then there's nothing stopping your employer from pulling the rug from under you. It's only "bad" for the American developer if they keep themselves isolated and they get complacent with their skills. It can be great if and only if you can ke
Philip Laureano wrote:
"knitting".
My mum used to knit, it takes some skill you know. Stones, glass houses and all that :D
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
-
always trying to out-do me in the forums aren't you.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
jgasm wrote:
always trying to out-do me in the forums aren't you.
Huh? Marc
-
One could write a dissertation subject. Global vs. local economy, analysis of actual cost benefits to the business, short term vs. long term investment/gains, the further economic stratification of society, emerging markets, company loyalty, cost of business in America (taxes, health care, labor laws, etc), shareholder pressure, global market competition, intellectual property, security, transfer of knowledge, the educational system, etc. However, the short answer, from my perspective as a software developer: Screw the dissertation. Outsourcing sucks. Marc
I don't even think the money is the heartbreaker, how many organisations have you heard of where they decide to outsource and their IP goes with it. Take a company send the bulk of your business knowledge OS and you have a serious problem. I have worked for 3 global organisations that have found they have lost all their internal skills for maintaining their core business software and have had to spend $M+ to build up the teams again. I'm not even convinced offshoring the donkey work is viable.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
-
Judging by the quality of the posts in the C# forum, the American developer has little to fear.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
American developer has little to fear.
But American (Oz, UK, EU etc) companies should be bloody horrified. You lose your skilled people (the next generation anyway)
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH