Wisconsin Parents Who Prayed as Daughter Died to Face Murder Charges
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Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding... Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
That is your level of faith,
I'm sorry, it's my level of literacy, and it's people who ignore these basic Bible teachings and kill their kids, who make all believers look bad.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Why not just believe in a higher power without all the 'up the ass shit' of religion?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
If that child will die, she will - whether in hospital or not
True. If she was uncurable, by medicine, she would have died. She was simply diabetic, a bit of insulin would have saved her.
Paul Selormey wrote:
The problem we Christians have is to join the world and mock/condemn other Christians if they appear to have stambled, instead of with love, prayerfully helping them stand
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
Paul Selormey wrote:
"attract people to the church", it seen all that is important to, to those in "help yourself".
Not sure what this means ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
And you think they do not care? Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not sure what this means ?
That is true. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
So it would seem....
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God".
I do recall when He healed a leper, he told him to present himself at the temple. He was not trying to subvert the law, or stop people from doing common sense things. To be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Why not just believe in a higher power without all the 'up the ass shit' of religion?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
Where "a higher power" means? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Where "a higher power" means? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
There isn't a silly little man made book to dictate that. Look for your own answers.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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Christian Graus wrote:
But surely you see that letting your child die is an unreasonable expression of faith ?
Abraham was willing to barbeque his child because God asked him.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
And you think they do not care? Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not sure what this means ?
That is true. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
And you think they do not care?
Who gives a DAMN if they care or not - will caring bring the child back ? They are stupid, a child is dead, that is what matters. I feel sorry for them, they are obviously of a low IQ and have probably been led up this path by some fool preacher. But, it doesn't change the fact.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
If I was her parent, I would not have let her die. But, that isn't my point, not at all. It's to say that your support of these parents, the degree to which you feel you have to support them because they believe in God, and the degree to which this childs death seems to mean nothing to you, is astounding.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: Not sure what this means ? That is true.
Well, it WAS gibberish. I suspect a word was missing, but unless you're willing to provide it, I'm not going to guess what it means.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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There isn't a silly little man made book to dictate that. Look for your own answers.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
Look for your own answers.
Nice to hear you do not have the answer, but I hope you will find it one day. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Then why did you respond? By the way look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac[^]
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible. This is a question of law, of protecting a child, and as such whatever is in the bible is no defence against breaking the law of the land. They may have done it out of faith, stupidity, ignorance or a combination of all three, but none of these is any excuse in the eye of the law - nor should it be.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
So it would seem....
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God".
I do recall when He healed a leper, he told him to present himself at the temple. He was not trying to subvert the law, or stop people from doing common sense things. To be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
o be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Interesting, you are proving how knowledgeable you are in the things of God. Did the Bible say it is wrong to test God? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible. This is a question of law, of protecting a child, and as such whatever is in the bible is no defence against breaking the law of the land. They may have done it out of faith, stupidity, ignorance or a combination of all three, but none of these is any excuse in the eye of the law - nor should it be.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible.
Unfortunately, it is the opposite.
cp9876 wrote:
but none of these is any excuse in the eye of the law - nor should it be.
I think in my very first post on this, I mentioned that they still have to obey the laws of their country, hope you have not missed that. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
o be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Interesting, you are proving how knowledgeable you are in the things of God. Did the Bible say it is wrong to test God? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, you are proving how knowledgeable you are in the things of God.
I love it when people stoop to insults. It really says a lot about them.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Did the Bible say it is wrong to test God?
Now I'm not sure if you're trolling. Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"[fn8] The word tempt in the concordance: 1) to prove, test, thoroughly 2) to put to proof God's character and power
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, you are proving how knowledgeable you are in the things of God.
I love it when people stoop to insults. It really says a lot about them.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Did the Bible say it is wrong to test God?
Now I'm not sure if you're trolling. Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"[fn8] The word tempt in the concordance: 1) to prove, test, thoroughly 2) to put to proof God's character and power
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I love it when people stoop to insults. It really says a lot about them.
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Christian Graus wrote:
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"[fn8]
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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cp9876 wrote:
This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible.
Unfortunately, it is the opposite.
cp9876 wrote:
but none of these is any excuse in the eye of the law - nor should it be.
I think in my very first post on this, I mentioned that they still have to obey the laws of their country, hope you have not missed that. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
cp9876 wrote: This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible. Unfortunately, it is the opposite.
None of these cases is clear cut, but what is reasonable care is determined not by religious beliefs but by the expectation of society - as one would expect in a secular society. So if they had refused water to their child because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If their child was bleeding profusely from a cut and they refused help because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If they refuse to allow their child to be taken to the emergency department after a car accident because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If their child had pneumonia that could be easily treated by penicillin and they refused help because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? Not to take a child to a doctor when they are as sick as described in that article, seems to me to be reckless, society expects parents to provide better care than that. It is no different to locking a baby in a car on a hot day. The borderline these days is more along the lines where to refuse care in chronic terminal diseases. Society expects parents to consult doctors to at least find out what the disease is and what treatment options exist. You cannot tell me that the child made an informed choice not to seek medical help. Someone has to stand up for the child. To use religion to harm a child is a crime in any language. You may be standing up for the parents but society will speak for the child - and I will applaud them all the way.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Paul Selormey wrote:
cp9876 wrote: This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible. Unfortunately, it is the opposite.
None of these cases is clear cut, but what is reasonable care is determined not by religious beliefs but by the expectation of society - as one would expect in a secular society. So if they had refused water to their child because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If their child was bleeding profusely from a cut and they refused help because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If they refuse to allow their child to be taken to the emergency department after a car accident because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? If their child had pneumonia that could be easily treated by penicillin and they refused help because they believed that god would provide, would that be OK? Not to take a child to a doctor when they are as sick as described in that article, seems to me to be reckless, society expects parents to provide better care than that. It is no different to locking a baby in a car on a hot day. The borderline these days is more along the lines where to refuse care in chronic terminal diseases. Society expects parents to consult doctors to at least find out what the disease is and what treatment options exist. You cannot tell me that the child made an informed choice not to seek medical help. Someone has to stand up for the child. To use religion to harm a child is a crime in any language. You may be standing up for the parents but society will speak for the child - and I will applaud them all the way.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Christian Graus wrote:
I love it when people stoop to insults. It really says a lot about them.
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Christian Graus wrote:
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"[fn8]
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Whatever
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"?
I understand two things. 1 - The word used, in the Greek, means to test. I posted that. 2 - The context is clear. Jesus is told to put himself in harms way to give God a chance to act, and He invokes this OT scripture as a reason not to. Inaction is a form of action. Failing to take opportunity of solutions to your problems is putting yourself in harms way. I am sorry, but I cannot percieve how you could possibly regard that Jesus is not saying that if you allow yourself harm on the basis that you'll leave it to God to fix it for you, that is a wrong attitude.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way.
Just to find out, is this you considered belief? Or is there some way in which your belief has more validity than theirs?
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Whatever
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"?
I understand two things. 1 - The word used, in the Greek, means to test. I posted that. 2 - The context is clear. Jesus is told to put himself in harms way to give God a chance to act, and He invokes this OT scripture as a reason not to. Inaction is a form of action. Failing to take opportunity of solutions to your problems is putting yourself in harms way. I am sorry, but I cannot percieve how you could possibly regard that Jesus is not saying that if you allow yourself harm on the basis that you'll leave it to God to fix it for you, that is a wrong attitude.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
The actual verse, Jesus quoted is part of the ten commandments. Deuteronomy 6:16. Clearly, you understood the difference, even though you will want it to look like the "testing" you have being mentioning. Even more surpursed when you mentioned "Concordance", since that does not give meaning of any word. Mal 3: 10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows" Here, it never mean "tempt me" because there is a difference. We should, therefore, be careful the way we interpret our Bible. Jesus said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I have "tested" it and know it is true, I did not "tempt" God, and I doubt it was the first time those parents prayed for their children on sickness. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.