Wisconsin Parents Who Prayed as Daughter Died to Face Murder Charges
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It's like the story about the man who clung to his roof in a flood, in the early stages the police told him to leave he said he trusted the lord, when a boat came and offered help he said he trusted the lord, when the helicopter came he said he trusted the lord, and he drowned. When he got to the pearly gates he was angry and demanded to see the boss and the lord said "but I sent a policeman to warn you, I sent a boat and a helicopter and you ignored them all". Surely it is not too much for believers to believe that doctors and hospitals are god's work, or do you believe that are they aligned with the other side??
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
Exactly - like I said, not letting doctors help you, is testing God, not trusting Him.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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So, the death of the child is an unfortunate side effect of true faith ? It's a shame that will be 'used against them' ? The Bible indicates to me that Christians should be like a bright and shining light, that our conduct should attract people to the church. I'm not sure how this qualifies. And that's just taking the religious argument and ignoring the not insignificant ( to me anyhow ) fact that a child is dead.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
So, the death of the child is an unfortunate side effect of true faith ? It's a shame that will be 'used against them' ?
If that child will die, she will - whether in hospital or not. In the court, it is not going to be Bible/faith but law, so yes, it will be "used against them".
Christian Graus wrote:
The Bible indicates to me that Christians should be like a bright and shining light, that our conduct should attract people to the church. I'm not sure how this qualifies. And that's just taking the religious argument and ignoring the not insignificant ( to me anyhow ) fact that a child is dead.
And it is unfornatute, when you start drawing conclusions about things you do not know how it will end. God's plan for this issue is unknown to both of us, it might look hopeless/end to you if you lack faith. The problem we Christians have is to join the world and mock/condemn other Christians if they appear to have stambled, instead of with love, prayerfully helping them stand. "attract people to the church", it seem all that is important to you, to those in "help yourself". Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
modified on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:23 PM
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Exactly - like I said, not letting doctors help you, is testing God, not trusting Him.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
That is your level of faith, and please do not extend it to mean "testing God" - which part of the Bible teaches that? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
"Criminal negligence" on the hand will mean that they never cared about their child
They might have cared but rejecting medical treatment in favor of asking an invisible friend to magically heal a child is criminal negligence no matter how you slice it.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
DemonPossessed wrote:
...asking an invisible friend...
Hmmm, we just feel different things. I feel the presense of God in me, and He is real to me. If you do not, He is not real to you. We can talk about it all day, and we will not agree since it is beyond human understanding or logic. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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That is your level of faith, and please do not extend it to mean "testing God" - which part of the Bible teaches that? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding... Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
That is your level of faith,
I'm sorry, it's my level of literacy, and it's people who ignore these basic Bible teachings and kill their kids, who make all believers look bad.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, the death of the child is an unfortunate side effect of true faith ? It's a shame that will be 'used against them' ?
If that child will die, she will - whether in hospital or not. In the court, it is not going to be Bible/faith but law, so yes, it will be "used against them".
Christian Graus wrote:
The Bible indicates to me that Christians should be like a bright and shining light, that our conduct should attract people to the church. I'm not sure how this qualifies. And that's just taking the religious argument and ignoring the not insignificant ( to me anyhow ) fact that a child is dead.
And it is unfornatute, when you start drawing conclusions about things you do not know how it will end. God's plan for this issue is unknown to both of us, it might look hopeless/end to you if you lack faith. The problem we Christians have is to join the world and mock/condemn other Christians if they appear to have stambled, instead of with love, prayerfully helping them stand. "attract people to the church", it seem all that is important to you, to those in "help yourself". Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
modified on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:23 PM
Paul Selormey wrote:
If that child will die, she will - whether in hospital or not
True. If she was uncurable, by medicine, she would have died. She was simply diabetic, a bit of insulin would have saved her.
Paul Selormey wrote:
The problem we Christians have is to join the world and mock/condemn other Christians if they appear to have stambled, instead of with love, prayerfully helping them stand
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
Paul Selormey wrote:
"attract people to the church", it seen all that is important to, to those in "help yourself".
Not sure what this means ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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DemonPossessed wrote:
...asking an invisible friend...
Hmmm, we just feel different things. I feel the presense of God in me, and He is real to me. If you do not, He is not real to you. We can talk about it all day, and we will not agree since it is beyond human understanding or logic. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
But surely you see that letting your child die is an unreasonable expression of faith ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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But surely you see that letting your child die is an unreasonable expression of faith ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
But surely you see that letting your child die is an unreasonable expression of faith ?
Abraham was willing to barbeque his child because God asked him.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
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Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding... Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
That is your level of faith,
I'm sorry, it's my level of literacy, and it's people who ignore these basic Bible teachings and kill their kids, who make all believers look bad.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Why not just believe in a higher power without all the 'up the ass shit' of religion?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
If that child will die, she will - whether in hospital or not
True. If she was uncurable, by medicine, she would have died. She was simply diabetic, a bit of insulin would have saved her.
Paul Selormey wrote:
The problem we Christians have is to join the world and mock/condemn other Christians if they appear to have stambled, instead of with love, prayerfully helping them stand
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
Paul Selormey wrote:
"attract people to the church", it seen all that is important to, to those in "help yourself".
Not sure what this means ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
And you think they do not care? Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not sure what this means ?
That is true. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Why not just believe in a higher power without all the 'up the ass shit' of religion?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
Where "a higher power" means? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
So it would seem....
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God".
I do recall when He healed a leper, he told him to present himself at the temple. He was not trying to subvert the law, or stop people from doing common sense things. To be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
But surely you see that letting your child die is an unreasonable expression of faith ?
Abraham was willing to barbeque his child because God asked him.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Where "a higher power" means? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
There isn't a silly little man made book to dictate that. Look for your own answers.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Their stand ? Are you insane ? A child is DEAD !!!!
And you think they do not care? Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not sure what this means ?
That is true. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
And you think they do not care?
Who gives a DAMN if they care or not - will caring bring the child back ? They are stupid, a child is dead, that is what matters. I feel sorry for them, they are obviously of a low IQ and have probably been led up this path by some fool preacher. But, it doesn't change the fact.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Stop behaving as if you love that child more than her parents.
If I was her parent, I would not have let her die. But, that isn't my point, not at all. It's to say that your support of these parents, the degree to which you feel you have to support them because they believe in God, and the degree to which this childs death seems to mean nothing to you, is astounding.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: Not sure what this means ? That is true.
Well, it WAS gibberish. I suspect a word was missing, but unless you're willing to provide it, I'm not going to guess what it means.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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There isn't a silly little man made book to dictate that. Look for your own answers.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
Look for your own answers.
Nice to hear you do not have the answer, but I hope you will find it one day. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Given that this is not even true, it's not worth responding to.
Then why did you respond? By the way look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac[^]
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
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Christian Graus wrote:
Wow - you've not read the Gospels ? Astounding...
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus was tempted by the devil to throw himself into harm, and Jesus said that the Bible says not to put God to the test. How is denying your child medical treatment in favour of prayer not testing God ?
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God". You are really reading the Gospel. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
This is a pointless discussion because you won't find the answer in the bible. This is a question of law, of protecting a child, and as such whatever is in the bible is no defence against breaking the law of the land. They may have done it out of faith, stupidity, ignorance or a combination of all three, but none of these is any excuse in the eye of the law - nor should it be.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting, reading the Bible is one thing, understand it is a different thing.
So it would seem....
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, and when they brought the sick to Him or was called to raise the dead, He said "Go and see the physician, stop testing God".
I do recall when He healed a leper, he told him to present himself at the temple. He was not trying to subvert the law, or stop people from doing common sense things. To be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
o be frank, I doubt any medicine of the time was likely to help much. That doesn't really change the fact that only someone determined to be illiterate, would suggest that it's a lack of faith to go to the doctor, or that not accepting the help that a doctor can give you, is not testing God.
Interesting, you are proving how knowledgeable you are in the things of God. Did the Bible say it is wrong to test God? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.