Who we are
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Google isn't my friend. It won't take me out for a few drinks.
You obviously don't google the for the right kind of dating websites. Google is better than ANY friend I've ever had! ;P just kidding! I have a wonderful girlfriend and don't google for dating websites! Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
just kidding! I have a wonderful girlfriend and don't google for dating websites!
Is this why you think every one of my posts references pr0n? Oh wait - that might just be me.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
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I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend". It's pathetic behaviour, wins no friends and reflects badly on the poster. If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
martin_hughes wrote:
I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend".
Frustration. When every imaginable permutation of the question has been asked and answered again and again for years. A sign it's time to stop visiting the programming forums for a while.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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An interesting - and possibly controversial post, but I would like to see what people think about something else. Which forums have you started to avoid because you don't like the level of question being asked? I used to spend a lot of time on the C# and SQL forums, but I spend a lot less time there now than I used to. I'll stop by, and if I think the poster has tried to help themselves then I'll try to help (or perhaps the question interests me enough to want to get involved). Now, I frequent the WPF and Linq forums more because the level of question is usually better.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Which forums have you started to avoid because you don't like the level of question being asked?
I took a look at the C# forum yesterday with the idea that maybe I'll start contributing to it, especially after several people tried to help me out with a question I posted on the .NET Framework forum, and I was feeling like, gee, I ought to return the favor by helping someone else. Two things struck me: 1. The number of inane questions 2. The number of questions that are so complicated that you either are unique in having a code example lying at your fingertips or you'd spend a day or two to produce a decent answer. To which I conclude: 1. I'm totally intolerant 2. And I call myself an experienced programmer??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Marc
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Hans Dietrich wrote:
If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all.
And that person learns what lesson? That CPian's are a rude bunch because they don't answer?
Hans Dietrich wrote:
Comments?
Frankly, I prefer the honest truth, not a politically correct, whitewashed, ether-silence.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member
As someone else commented along the same vein, but I'll state somewhat differenty: just because you're family doesn't mean I have to put up with you, your abuse, your addictions, your psychosis. Thank goodness some of these posters on CP aren't family. I'd be hiding under a rock in embarrassment and driving the porcelain bus in disgust. As usual, I find it absurd that its the thinking and intelligent people that should be "responsible" for the idiots out there. All that results in is more idiots. I say we put the metaphorical birth control in the water and get these people to stop (metaphorically speaking, lest I insult anyone) reproducing. But no, we want the idiots, we want their idiotic children (metaphorically speaking) and therefore the very people that have the intelligence to do something about it instead decide to put their collective heads into the ground like an ostrich and ignore the problem. F. That. :) Rebuttal? Marc
perhaps Hans wants us to just be the bigger person and not respond with something as equally as stupid and immature. (Which we have seen a lot of lately). yes, if someone posts something stupid, then maybe it's time to just say "hey that's not gonna get an answer" but more often than not, a reputable CPian will just reply "omg you cant read. you are so dumb, do your own homework!" or even better "are you sure your[sic] not some indian lady boy!" I think Hans is talking about those kind of rebuttles to poor posts. Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes. just my thoughts. ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon.
And I've seen children that haven't even figured that out! Marc
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
-
The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
While I understand you don't like the demeanor of many respondents on CodeProject, I don't think it's because CodeProject's respondents are any different from those in the Google Groups. The questions on places such as http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp/topics?hl=en&lnk=gschg[^] tend to be well-thought-out questions by intelligent questioners who fluently speak English and make an attempt to use good grammar and punctuation. I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
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I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend". It's pathetic behaviour, wins no friends and reflects badly on the poster. If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
martin_hughes wrote:
If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
Easy. If the question is 'how do I send an email in C#', or 'what is n-tiered development', or 'I am new to programming, how can I write a 3D engine', an article here on CP, or elsewhere, is quicker to find and will go into more detail than a forum reply. If people don't learn how to do some basic research, they are going to be reliant on sites like this for the most basic questions, forever. However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online. They complement each other, CP and google. They do not compete, it's just that some people seem to prefer to ask basic questions and hope for a copy and paste answer so they don't have to learn anything. I give helpful answers all the time and get 1 voted because I didn't provide a copy paste solution. Sometimes, people delete their question, 1 vote me, and ask the same thing again. I've seen people ask the same thing 5 or 6 times over several days, because they don't like the answer that many people give over that time. I may sometimes be ruder than I would like, I'm working on it. But, regardless of if I stoop to the level of sarcasm or not, my replies are always designed to make the person on the other end a better programmer, even if it means not giving them exactly what they want. For example, someone asked how to stop the back button working in a browser, it took three iterations to work out that he has not written proper code to manage if a user is logged in, that was his problem. CP is great for stuff like that - he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the be
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
i think Hans point was to just ignore the question or vote it down in some manner...not hand out answers.
Hans wrote:
If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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An interesting - and possibly controversial post, but I would like to see what people think about something else. Which forums have you started to avoid because you don't like the level of question being asked? I used to spend a lot of time on the C# and SQL forums, but I spend a lot less time there now than I used to. I'll stop by, and if I think the poster has tried to help themselves then I'll try to help (or perhaps the question interests me enough to want to get involved). Now, I frequent the WPF and Linq forums more because the level of question is usually better.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
I tend to stick to the C#/VB/ASP.NET forums as a rule ( I wish I knew enough about WPF and LINQ to go there, maybe soon ). The VB forum has the worst questions.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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A sign to get a fucking life more like :)
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martin_hughes wrote:
I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend".
Frustration. When every imaginable permutation of the question has been asked and answered again and again for years. A sign it's time to stop visiting the programming forums for a while.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
A sign to get a fucking life more like :)
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
I agree - that's why I wrote an article on how to google for information.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon.
And I've seen children that haven't even figured that out! Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
And I've seen children that haven't even figured that out!
And there are some who can't analyze this even when you tell them.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Thank goodness, I thought it was just me. I got slapped down, but HARD, when I started asking questions about windows in a C++ group. I was determined to learn, I accepted the beating and learned from it, and 6 months later I had learned enough C++ because of those guys to get my first programming job. I was upset at the time, but in hindsight, it's thankfulness to those guys that motivates me more than anything else to answer questions in places like CP.
Shog9 wrote:
That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
The voting has become simplified, which I've noticed means I'm getting a lot more 1 votes.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I agree - that's why I wrote an article on how to google for information.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
And that's why I point many users to your article :)
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
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Hans Dietrich wrote:
If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all.
And that person learns what lesson? That CPian's are a rude bunch because they don't answer?
Hans Dietrich wrote:
Comments?
Frankly, I prefer the honest truth, not a politically correct, whitewashed, ether-silence.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member
As someone else commented along the same vein, but I'll state somewhat differenty: just because you're family doesn't mean I have to put up with you, your abuse, your addictions, your psychosis. Thank goodness some of these posters on CP aren't family. I'd be hiding under a rock in embarrassment and driving the porcelain bus in disgust. As usual, I find it absurd that its the thinking and intelligent people that should be "responsible" for the idiots out there. All that results in is more idiots. I say we put the metaphorical birth control in the water and get these people to stop (metaphorically speaking, lest I insult anyone) reproducing. But no, we want the idiots, we want their idiotic children (metaphorically speaking) and therefore the very people that have the intelligence to do something about it instead decide to put their collective heads into the ground like an ostrich and ignore the problem. F. That. :) Rebuttal? Marc
We need stupid people, they are an important part of society. If we didn't have stupid people, the intelligent people would have to do all the menial and mind numbingly dull jobs like supermarket cashier or shelf stacker. I'm sure we've all worked in jobs like that when we were younger, at weekends to make some pocket money etc. and I feel totally sorry for some of the people I met who had been working on a cash desk for 15 years, and had absolutely no prospects of doing anything different. I found 1 4 hour shift a week dull enough, how they lasted 15 years of full 7.5 hour days I'll never know, but I'm grateful to them for doing it so I don't have to. From now on, lets respect the stupid people. Encourage them when we can, and be grateful for what they do for us, and endure their stupidity for the brief moments we have to converse with them. (Yes, I know, some people who do those kind of jobs aren't stupid, they just are motivated in different ways, blah blah blah. Most are just stupid)
Simon
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perhaps Hans wants us to just be the bigger person and not respond with something as equally as stupid and immature. (Which we have seen a lot of lately). yes, if someone posts something stupid, then maybe it's time to just say "hey that's not gonna get an answer" but more often than not, a reputable CPian will just reply "omg you cant read. you are so dumb, do your own homework!" or even better "are you sure your[sic] not some indian lady boy!" I think Hans is talking about those kind of rebuttles to poor posts. Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes. just my thoughts. ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
jgasm wrote:
Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes.
Good point. Marc
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I tend to stick to the C#/VB/ASP.NET forums as a rule ( I wish I knew enough about WPF and LINQ to go there, maybe soon ). The VB forum has the worst questions.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
The VB forum has the worst questions
I never ever go there so I can't comment. However, I find the ASP.NET is by far the worst. I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren, but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics. I don't mind a question that's had some thought put into it, and where the developer is obviously at a loss on some obscure piece of syntax or obtuse behaviour. Here's one I read yesterday: "I have a RichTextBox containing a FlowDocument. Now I want to change the formatting of the currently focused inline when the text is changed. Unfortunately, the Span element does not have a TextChanged-event or something like that. So I have to use the RichTextBox' TextChanged-event. But how to access the selected element (Span, Paragraph, ....)? " It's a good question - there's been some work put in by the OP and they have tried some things before becoming stuck. Contrast this with posts by people who won't even buy a book to help themselves (you know who I'm talking about Sonia). There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.