Who else saw the "Birth of Israel" on TV on Sunday? (BBC)
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randprin wrote:
took it's soldiers in to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties from the lebanon side
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
randprin wrote:
really, stop while you have a shred of dignity left, you just keep digging yourself into the "foaming at the mouth hating israel no matter what" corner
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
lol, no. what was going over there was point bombing with smart weapons, if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
fat_boy wrote:
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
i'm sorry? what? i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source, you cannot or will not, and so i ask you to stop before you embarass yourself any further, my apologies if you thought this was a personal attack against you (although, and i have to add the last barb in, "if you feel the hat fits..." :laugh: )
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I'm beyond being offended by you since I now expect it. I am, however, dissapointed at the frequncy with which you make posts where you appear to revel in painting Israel as the villain of the piece. And I have to agree, we are no angels but, just once, I'd like to see you make a post about the hundreds of rocket attacks that go unanswered or the number of palestinians given treatment in Israeli hospitals, free, or how about posting about all the suicide attacks that decimate families that just want to live in peace? Or how about you condemn the constant stream of anti-semitic bile spewed to palestininian children in school? Yes, I'm sure we made mistakes and I'm sure we'll make more but we do our damndest not to kill innocents and we do our best to try and make peace with people that would rather we just ceased to exist.
digital man wrote:
I am, however, dissapointed at the frequncy with which you make posts where you appear to revel in painting Israel as the villain of the piece.
A spade is a spade. Gotta call it if you see it.
digital man wrote:
Or how about you condemn the constant stream of anti-semitic bile spewed to palestininian children in school?
So you have forgotten about the video game I linked to some time back about killing Jewish settlers? I seem to recall you were pretty enraged by it.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
lol, no. what was going over there was point bombing with smart weapons, if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
fat_boy wrote:
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
i'm sorry? what? i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source, you cannot or will not, and so i ask you to stop before you embarass yourself any further, my apologies if you thought this was a personal attack against you (although, and i have to add the last barb in, "if you feel the hat fits..." :laugh: )
randprin wrote:
if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
randprin wrote:
i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Well, some examples would be this[^] ( this account seems watered down to me, the one I read was by journalists on the ground who reported that Israeli army taking part ), stories I've seen by 60 Minutes, on the Israeli army denying basic medical care to palestinians, other stories I read recently on the subject were in a book called 'Tell me no lies' edited by John Pilger, those are sources I can remember off the top of my head. I have no doubt that many people live in Israel and wish to do so in peace. I have no doubt there are terrorist attacks. I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
John Pilger? Don't make me laugh: you don't get any loonier left that that: he is rabidly pro-palestinian: hardly an unbiased source of information.
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I see the propaganda machine is alive and kicking :)) I'm sure you believe you're right, and your media was so truthful but you've still violated the borders of a state that unfortunately wasn't capable of defending itself either from Israel or Hezbullah or Syria. Though it's irrelevant, it's not like anyone actually with a decent army cares about any kind of borders when it comes to their own interests. The UN is such a farce except when it comes to keeping the small ones in line.
It's a shame about Ceausescu. If you hadn't executed him, you might still have those Arab terrorist contacts of his if he was still around. You could then try to subvert Israel from within.
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digital man wrote:
I am, however, dissapointed at the frequncy with which you make posts where you appear to revel in painting Israel as the villain of the piece.
A spade is a spade. Gotta call it if you see it.
digital man wrote:
Or how about you condemn the constant stream of anti-semitic bile spewed to palestininian children in school?
So you have forgotten about the video game I linked to some time back about killing Jewish settlers? I seem to recall you were pretty enraged by it.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
A spade is a spade. Gotta call it if you see it.
Sometimes a spade is a spade of a differing colour: be nice if you highlighted that once in a blue moon.
fat_boy wrote:
So you have forgotten about the video game I linked to some time back about killing Jewish settlers? I seem to recall you were pretty enraged by it.
Yup: have no recollection of that at all: link? Okay: so your next post should be about the constant stream of attacks that specifically target non-combatents inside Israel and condemns the palestininas for so doing. I'll hold my breath, shall I?
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god was never relevant, but that's a different thread of wholly different hue.
Dexterus wrote:
Of course they get treated in hospitals, some people actually care about lives and their oaths.
They get to hospital because the Israeli government has a policy of non-discrimination regardless of background. Do people forget that there a large number of Israeli muslims, christians, etc, all of whom are treated as equals?
Why does a government need a policy to not discriminate based on race/sex/religion/nationality, shouldn't that be a given that all men are equal? Why would I forget that when that is what the normal state of things should be and there's nothing to forget? Or at least the one professed by almost everyone. Or isn't it?
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randprin wrote:
1. not my post.
Sorry. Saw the reply, assumed it was Oakman. Didnt expect a thread jumper.
randprin wrote:
2. where did he say that? or where did you deduct he said that? quote please.
Its an interpretation. If you have a different one then please share it with us.
randprin wrote:
israel's occupation of the west bank
How about Israel doubling its size after the 60's war with land it took but hasnt given back?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
How about Israel doubling its size after the 60's war with land it took but hasnt given back?
i didn't know the west bank equaled in size to the size of the state of israel... (oh wait, there's also the shebaah farms (whcih the UN ruled out as israeli territory), that's another square kilometer i guess)
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Christian Graus wrote:
I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Oh please. Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves? I'm sorry, with all respect, that's nonsense. Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion. It's not the behaviour of others, it's the behaviour of themselves. What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people? I'm truly surprised this is coming from you.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves?
I think only a retard could think otherwise.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion.
Radical religion finds a foothold when people have no hope in this life.
73Zeppelin wrote:
What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people?
Well, I would suggest that when Israel controls the lives of Palestinians and gives them no hope for a real future, it tends to breed desperation. Are the people who act this way not responisible for their actions ? Of course not. But, you take away hope, and this sort of thing breeds. Give people hope in this life, and they won't die so readily.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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randprin wrote:
if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
randprin wrote:
i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
He's doing what you like to: calling a spade a spade. Bottom line: Israel has the resources to invade and obliterate pretty much any of the surrounding countries and it was only the Americans interveing in 67 that stopped them doing do so then after having been invaded from every side. The reality is that she does not have the will to so do. Isarel would love peace but realises that is not the desire of the vast majority of people by whom she is surrounded. And even when she offered Arafat virtuaslly everything he wanted he still said no becuase there was always one more thing. The destrcution of Israel. That being the case what, exactly, would you propse Israel do? If they do nothing they would be overrun within weeks. They have no choice in the face of such virulent anatgonism but to defend themselves. Unless, of source, you have a better idea.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
No, seriously, Christian, now I've seen it all. Are you suggesting that the Jewish treatment of the Palestinians is comparable to the German treatment of the Jews during the Holocaust?
I'm suggesting that it is brutal at times, that it is inhuman at times, and that it doesn't need to be 'as bad' to suggest that it means that the oppressed easily move into the role of oppressor if allowed to. I am not in any way suggesting this means we should not have compassion to holocaust survivors. I am suggesting that we should have the same compassion to all people who are mistreated. I am not the one choosing who to sympathise with.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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John Pilger? Don't make me laugh: you don't get any loonier left that that: he is rabidly pro-palestinian: hardly an unbiased source of information.
Well, like I said, everyone has a bias. He didn't write this story though, he was not the eye witness, just the editor of the book. I have noted that 60 minutes has moved from a pro to an anti Israel bias in their reporting, and I have found the stories I have seen there equally compelling, although certainly not as horrific as the story of the massacre I refered to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Oakman wrote:
had war declared against it
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
Oakman wrote:
and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above.
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Christian Graus wrote:
I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...? The forcible displacement of a people by another goes back to the beginning of recorded history. Follow that road far enough and you end up looking for recompense for the Neanderthals. (Presumably that would make CSS a wealthy creature.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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randprin wrote:
if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
randprin wrote:
i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
not really, no, i just happen to know what real carpet bombing looks like, believe me, the site of a semi flat plane with crystalized sand and stone fused togather is very convincing, if israel used such methods last year, you wouldn't hear about a single dead israeli soldier.
fat_boy wrote:
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
i did, all of them link to the same sites, and by the way, if you check them out you'll notice they all copied their text from each other, typos included.
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I'm suggesting that it is brutal at times, that it is inhuman at times, and that it doesn't need to be 'as bad' to suggest that it means that the oppressed easily move into the role of oppressor if allowed to. I am not in any way suggesting this means we should not have compassion to holocaust survivors. I am suggesting that we should have the same compassion to all people who are mistreated. I am not the one choosing who to sympathise with.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Okay, because I was starting to think for a moment that you were equating the Nazi campaign against the Jews with the way the Jews are treating the Palestinians. While their treatment of Palestine is certainly objectionable, they are nowhere near the level of planned genocide the Nazis had implemented. Anyways, it's my opinion that both countries need to accept mutual existence. I don't think it helps that those in positions of leadership on the Palestinian side preach an ideology of Jewish destruction and obliteration. I think the asymmetry lies there. I don't see a coordinated government attempt by the Jews to preach destruction of Palestine. I do see the Palestinian leadership preaching destruction of Israel, however. Anyways, neither side is going to give up territory. The best solution is compromise so that people can coexist and live in security and peace.
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Oakman wrote:
can you name another modern country that, since WWII had war declared against it, won the war and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors
The US? UK? NATO?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor.
They had six million ghosts telling them that it was an effective strategy. Can you say with surety that you would not have acted in the same way if faced with the same circumstances?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
not really, no, i just happen to know what real carpet bombing looks like, believe me, the site of a semi flat plane with crystalized sand and stone fused togather is very convincing, if israel used such methods last year, you wouldn't hear about a single dead israeli soldier.
fat_boy wrote:
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
i did, all of them link to the same sites, and by the way, if you check them out you'll notice they all copied their text from each other, typos included.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above.
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Christian Graus wrote:
I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...? The forcible displacement of a people by another goes back to the beginning of recorded history. Follow that road far enough and you end up looking for recompense for the Neanderthals. (Presumably that would make CSS a wealthy creature.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
No, the difference is that those displaced in this case are still with us and can be directly compensated for their loss, or at least provided for.
Oakman wrote:
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Perhaps I am just cynical. However, if they don't treat people as badly as they did, the motive doesn't really matter much, does it ?
Oakman wrote:
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...?
See above. IF anything, we all pay daily for our racial guilt for those things, in terms of all sorts of policies that seek to favour aborigines here, for sure, to try to redress the balance, but the difference is, the people who were displaced are long dead and so are their children. Just because wrong was done in the past, doesn't mean it can be today. Why do you think the US didn't just fly into Iraq, bomb it, and make it the 51st state of the US ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor.
They had six million ghosts telling them that it was an effective strategy. Can you say with surety that you would not have acted in the same way if faced with the same circumstances?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
No, indeed, I was making a general comment about human nature and not accusing them specifically as being different to anyone else.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )