Who else saw the "Birth of Israel" on TV on Sunday? (BBC)
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I see the propaganda machine is alive and kicking :)) I'm sure you believe you're right, and your media was so truthful but you've still violated the borders of a state that unfortunately wasn't capable of defending itself either from Israel or Hezbullah or Syria. Though it's irrelevant, it's not like anyone actually with a decent army cares about any kind of borders when it comes to their own interests. The UN is such a farce except when it comes to keeping the small ones in line.
It's a shame about Ceausescu. If you hadn't executed him, you might still have those Arab terrorist contacts of his if he was still around. You could then try to subvert Israel from within.
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digital man wrote:
I am, however, dissapointed at the frequncy with which you make posts where you appear to revel in painting Israel as the villain of the piece.
A spade is a spade. Gotta call it if you see it.
digital man wrote:
Or how about you condemn the constant stream of anti-semitic bile spewed to palestininian children in school?
So you have forgotten about the video game I linked to some time back about killing Jewish settlers? I seem to recall you were pretty enraged by it.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
A spade is a spade. Gotta call it if you see it.
Sometimes a spade is a spade of a differing colour: be nice if you highlighted that once in a blue moon.
fat_boy wrote:
So you have forgotten about the video game I linked to some time back about killing Jewish settlers? I seem to recall you were pretty enraged by it.
Yup: have no recollection of that at all: link? Okay: so your next post should be about the constant stream of attacks that specifically target non-combatents inside Israel and condemns the palestininas for so doing. I'll hold my breath, shall I?
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god was never relevant, but that's a different thread of wholly different hue.
Dexterus wrote:
Of course they get treated in hospitals, some people actually care about lives and their oaths.
They get to hospital because the Israeli government has a policy of non-discrimination regardless of background. Do people forget that there a large number of Israeli muslims, christians, etc, all of whom are treated as equals?
Why does a government need a policy to not discriminate based on race/sex/religion/nationality, shouldn't that be a given that all men are equal? Why would I forget that when that is what the normal state of things should be and there's nothing to forget? Or at least the one professed by almost everyone. Or isn't it?
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Christian Graus wrote:
I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Oh please. Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves? I'm sorry, with all respect, that's nonsense. Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion. It's not the behaviour of others, it's the behaviour of themselves. What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people? I'm truly surprised this is coming from you.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves?
I think only a retard could think otherwise.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion.
Radical religion finds a foothold when people have no hope in this life.
73Zeppelin wrote:
What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people?
Well, I would suggest that when Israel controls the lives of Palestinians and gives them no hope for a real future, it tends to breed desperation. Are the people who act this way not responisible for their actions ? Of course not. But, you take away hope, and this sort of thing breeds. Give people hope in this life, and they won't die so readily.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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randprin wrote:
1. not my post.
Sorry. Saw the reply, assumed it was Oakman. Didnt expect a thread jumper.
randprin wrote:
2. where did he say that? or where did you deduct he said that? quote please.
Its an interpretation. If you have a different one then please share it with us.
randprin wrote:
israel's occupation of the west bank
How about Israel doubling its size after the 60's war with land it took but hasnt given back?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
How about Israel doubling its size after the 60's war with land it took but hasnt given back?
i didn't know the west bank equaled in size to the size of the state of israel... (oh wait, there's also the shebaah farms (whcih the UN ruled out as israeli territory), that's another square kilometer i guess)
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randprin wrote:
if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
randprin wrote:
i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
He's doing what you like to: calling a spade a spade. Bottom line: Israel has the resources to invade and obliterate pretty much any of the surrounding countries and it was only the Americans interveing in 67 that stopped them doing do so then after having been invaded from every side. The reality is that she does not have the will to so do. Isarel would love peace but realises that is not the desire of the vast majority of people by whom she is surrounded. And even when she offered Arafat virtuaslly everything he wanted he still said no becuase there was always one more thing. The destrcution of Israel. That being the case what, exactly, would you propse Israel do? If they do nothing they would be overrun within weeks. They have no choice in the face of such virulent anatgonism but to defend themselves. Unless, of source, you have a better idea.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
No, seriously, Christian, now I've seen it all. Are you suggesting that the Jewish treatment of the Palestinians is comparable to the German treatment of the Jews during the Holocaust?
I'm suggesting that it is brutal at times, that it is inhuman at times, and that it doesn't need to be 'as bad' to suggest that it means that the oppressed easily move into the role of oppressor if allowed to. I am not in any way suggesting this means we should not have compassion to holocaust survivors. I am suggesting that we should have the same compassion to all people who are mistreated. I am not the one choosing who to sympathise with.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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John Pilger? Don't make me laugh: you don't get any loonier left that that: he is rabidly pro-palestinian: hardly an unbiased source of information.
Well, like I said, everyone has a bias. He didn't write this story though, he was not the eye witness, just the editor of the book. I have noted that 60 minutes has moved from a pro to an anti Israel bias in their reporting, and I have found the stories I have seen there equally compelling, although certainly not as horrific as the story of the massacre I refered to.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Oakman wrote:
had war declared against it
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
Oakman wrote:
and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above.
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Christian Graus wrote:
I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...? The forcible displacement of a people by another goes back to the beginning of recorded history. Follow that road far enough and you end up looking for recompense for the Neanderthals. (Presumably that would make CSS a wealthy creature.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I'm suggesting that it is brutal at times, that it is inhuman at times, and that it doesn't need to be 'as bad' to suggest that it means that the oppressed easily move into the role of oppressor if allowed to. I am not in any way suggesting this means we should not have compassion to holocaust survivors. I am suggesting that we should have the same compassion to all people who are mistreated. I am not the one choosing who to sympathise with.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Okay, because I was starting to think for a moment that you were equating the Nazi campaign against the Jews with the way the Jews are treating the Palestinians. While their treatment of Palestine is certainly objectionable, they are nowhere near the level of planned genocide the Nazis had implemented. Anyways, it's my opinion that both countries need to accept mutual existence. I don't think it helps that those in positions of leadership on the Palestinian side preach an ideology of Jewish destruction and obliteration. I think the asymmetry lies there. I don't see a coordinated government attempt by the Jews to preach destruction of Palestine. I do see the Palestinian leadership preaching destruction of Israel, however. Anyways, neither side is going to give up territory. The best solution is compromise so that people can coexist and live in security and peace.
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Oakman wrote:
can you name another modern country that, since WWII had war declared against it, won the war and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors
The US? UK? NATO?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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randprin wrote:
if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
randprin wrote:
i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
not really, no, i just happen to know what real carpet bombing looks like, believe me, the site of a semi flat plane with crystalized sand and stone fused togather is very convincing, if israel used such methods last year, you wouldn't hear about a single dead israeli soldier.
fat_boy wrote:
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
i did, all of them link to the same sites, and by the way, if you check them out you'll notice they all copied their text from each other, typos included.
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Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor.
They had six million ghosts telling them that it was an effective strategy. Can you say with surety that you would not have acted in the same way if faced with the same circumstances?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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fat_boy wrote:
Oh thats so tough sounding. Makes you feel good doesnt it?
not really, no, i just happen to know what real carpet bombing looks like, believe me, the site of a semi flat plane with crystalized sand and stone fused togather is very convincing, if israel used such methods last year, you wouldn't hear about a single dead israeli soldier.
fat_boy wrote:
496 sources found on google. Help youself.
i did, all of them link to the same sites, and by the way, if you check them out you'll notice they all copied their text from each other, typos included.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above.
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Christian Graus wrote:
I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...? The forcible displacement of a people by another goes back to the beginning of recorded history. Follow that road far enough and you end up looking for recompense for the Neanderthals. (Presumably that would make CSS a wealthy creature.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
If we play that game, the U.S. will seek payback from the UK for 1812, and Britain and France will be at each other's throat for multiple reasons.
No, the difference is that those displaced in this case are still with us and can be directly compensated for their loss, or at least provided for.
Oakman wrote:
Interesting that you could ascribe it to better motives.
Perhaps I am just cynical. However, if they don't treat people as badly as they did, the motive doesn't really matter much, does it ?
Oakman wrote:
As the UK did the Irish and the U.S. did the Amerinds, and Australia did the indigines...and...and...and...?
See above. IF anything, we all pay daily for our racial guilt for those things, in terms of all sorts of policies that seek to favour aborigines here, for sure, to try to redress the balance, but the difference is, the people who were displaced are long dead and so are their children. Just because wrong was done in the past, doesn't mean it can be today. Why do you think the US didn't just fly into Iraq, bomb it, and make it the 51st state of the US ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor.
They had six million ghosts telling them that it was an effective strategy. Can you say with surety that you would not have acted in the same way if faced with the same circumstances?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
No, indeed, I was making a general comment about human nature and not accusing them specifically as being different to anyone else.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Why does a government need a policy to not discriminate based on race/sex/religion/nationality, shouldn't that be a given that all men are equal? Why would I forget that when that is what the normal state of things should be and there's nothing to forget? Or at least the one professed by almost everyone. Or isn't it?
Dexterus wrote:
Why does a government need a policy to not discriminate based on race/sex/religion/nationality, shouldn't that be a given that all men are equal?
Not for most of recorded time anywhere and only in a few places today. Where it is true, it is the law. Where it is partially true, that is the law. And for most of the world, inequality is the law.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves?
I think only a retard could think otherwise.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion.
Radical religion finds a foothold when people have no hope in this life.
73Zeppelin wrote:
What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people?
Well, I would suggest that when Israel controls the lives of Palestinians and gives them no hope for a real future, it tends to breed desperation. Are the people who act this way not responisible for their actions ? Of course not. But, you take away hope, and this sort of thing breeds. Give people hope in this life, and they won't die so readily.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I think only a retard could think otherwise.
Christian Graus wrote:
Radical religion finds a foothold when people have no hope in this life.
You do realize that the majority of Jihadist's come from the middle to upper class educated demographic, don't you? Tell me how these people have no hope... Furthermore, now the radicalized elements in the U.K. are basically home-grown. How do they have no hope? The plain truth is that radical Islam will accept nothing less that the elimination of Western liberal democracy. If they had it their way, they'd eliminate all those who do not accept Islam and either dispose or make dhimmi's of the rest. Radical Islam isn't about a lack of hope, it's about a culture of death and servitude.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I would suggest that when Israel controls the lives of Palestinians and gives them no hope for a real future, it tends to breed desperation. Are the people who act this way not responisible for their actions ? Of course not. But, you take away hope, and this sort of thing breeds. Give people hope in this life, and they won't die so readily.
It works both ways. Israel faces the threat of annihilation from the surrounding Arab countries. A threat that is very real and has even been espoused by Iran. If both sides feel there is no peaceful solution, of course they are going to defend themselves.
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Oakman wrote:
Why should I believe you over him
Because I dont lie. http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm#DAHMASH[^]
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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It's a shame about Ceausescu. If you hadn't executed him, you might still have those Arab terrorist contacts of his if he was still around. You could then try to subvert Israel from within.
Hihi, always resort to the same old "You're antisemite" trick. If it makes you feel better. I'm not gonna give anyone a pass just because they're suffered greatly in the past, and it wasn't Israel that suffered, it was the people, the families, the ones that you so easilly now call "6 million", a statistic you wave around as a "STOP, you can't say anything bad about Israel or you're evil" when it is so much more, a lesson that so many seem to have forgotten or learned so little from when it comes to actions. But I'm sure you did your play on May 1st. I'm not saying Israel could have settled this peacefully. At this point there probably aren't many other choices, but they're not doing a whole lot at improving their image with the Palestinians that wouldn't mind living a peaceful life, if they do care. Maybe, just maybe if they had handled the start better but I'm sure nobody back then thought that the peasants they were throwing out of THEIR land would fight back. But that's long gone and can't restart it. It s all about the future and that isn't looking too bright. As for Ceausescu, yeah, heard the SIE had links to some terrorist organisations, but they had all kinds of dubious dealings, including with some assasins. What does that have to do with me? Am I as a person to blame for what my country did, in another time? Or can't you differentiate between country and person, past and present?