No one teaches PROGRAMMING any more
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I have to agree. But, you have to consider this much: the software developer that KNOWS the underlying hardware (as well as the business stuff too) is going to be the one who comes out smelling like a rose. That is, if outsourcing doesnt choke us all first. While it may be true that they dont teach carpenters how to make tools anymore, those who know how the tools are made and the history of the tools themselves, are at an advantage... Some of the best carpenters were able to devise their own tools because they knew tool-making as well as carpentry.
I don't really agree. It would be comforting to think so being a person that learned from assembly on up, I could say "I am better" but in the trenches it's a minor advantage in rare cases at best. Hardware is dirt cheap, it's far cheaper to simply spec higher level hardware than to pay developers to spend a month optimizing something and the majority of software is written for a virtual machine these days anyway. Your tool analogy might be applicable to craftsmen that are hand making furniture, but a run of the mill carpenter not so much. Society has made it's choice: faster and cheaper. Few care about quality these days, just "is it good enough". That's one reason why I have my own company, I couldn't work in a cubicle all day on something I know is simply "good enough" day after day.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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You should know assembler coming OUT of college? I'm 17 and will be a college freshman (CS major, obviously) this fall. I wrote the code snippet below off the top of my head, using no references but an ASCII table (to look up the value of '0'. It doesn't do anything complicated - just outputs the numbers 0 to 9 inclusive - but it proves my point.
main: xor eax, eax ; initialize loop loop: mov ebx, eax ; convert to ascii for output add ebx, 30h push ebx ; print it call putc add esp, 4 ; unwind the stack inc eax ; bump loop counter cmp eax, 9 ; time to stop? jle loop ; no, keep going done: ret putc: ; implementation not shown - print character at top of stack to screen ; using __cdecl calling conventionmodified on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 7:28 PM
azonenberg wrote:
You should know assembler coming OUT of college?
well, i think i said "at least know..." or something to that effect... Not sure why you're trying to prove to me you know asm... Looks kinda like an answer to a short quiz... Not code i'd likely have written. your labels are a little lamely named. your comments should say "printing out the string 0123456789 instead of "bump loop counter" and won't it print a character beyond 9 due to your cmp?
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El Corazon wrote:
There are more than enough jobs, and more than enough people to fill them.
Can you explain to me exactly what this means? Aren't these mutually exclusive states?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadolBalboos wrote:
Aren't these mutually exclusive states?
Not really. If there is no intention of hiring someone local, then you simply leave the job open, turn away all 300+ applicants, and then outsource the job to India. Or you simply never offer the job locally, and determine behind the scenes that you need to hire n number of people from India, and then never check their qualifications. You get them cheap, so what does it really matter right?
------------------ John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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Well I guess I'm in the minority then. I'm 17 years old and will be entering a CS program at a major university this fall. I wrote my first C program in 1999 and was learning C++ before my tenth birthday. I've written a bytecode compiler and interpreter for an object-oriented language based on C++. I not only wrote a complete Windows GUI application (albeit a simple one) in x86 assembly, I actually enjoyed doing it. I've never had a formal course in operating systems, but that will be coming soon...
Very cool! :cool: /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
ROFL! That's why love MIT's brief but effective differentiator[^].
Funny. For a second, I thought I was reading the synopsis of the CS department where I went to school - their approach was pretty much exactly the same. Little or no emphasis on languages; little or no emphasis on application development for its own sake. Lots of emphasis on algorithms and data structures; lots of emphasis on math. Incidentally, my degree was in Engineering, but there's alot of overlap and I took alot of CS classes.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
Patrick S wrote:
my degree was in Engineering, but there's alot of overlap
For sure. At MIT, the EE and CS curricula blend into each other. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Walking backwards. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Being from India as well and undergoing my college course (1st year), I completely understand and agree with cpp.samurai. I think you are overestimating C++ in India. Forget "new" and "delete", my teacher barely understands what pointers are which naturally spills over to the students as well. In my opinion, I find programmers in US, UK, etc are vastly superior. Obviously, I am judging by the people *I* meet which happen to be teenagers. I just don't find that kind of spirit here. Out of the 60 students in my class for my course ("Computer Science and Engineering"), the rest 59 can barely do a "Hello World". The problem lies in the root. Ask anyone in my class, they chose Computer Science simply because thats where the demand is not because they actually like the subject. I doubt outsourcing has any effect on programming worldwide. Its more of customer support, etc thats being outsourced, monotonous work. I don't think you can apply the same sort of teaching pattern for other subjects to programming. Ironic actually, you spent more time writing code in your book than a computer. I do agree, a certain amount of theory is required for programming as well but the usual grinding and mugging up can never be applied to coding. Sadly, it happens. Most of the students in my class can write basic programs but when it comes to pointers and stuff, they actually byheart the code and the examinations don't ask any questions beyond your textbook. I just don't get it, how can anyone just memorize a program. "There is no teaching, only learning." Programming is the best example for the quote :)
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UD wrote:
25 years of development and, not only head-down/hands-on development, but business experience (across hospitality, accounting, financial, utilities, medical and machinery to name a few). I can read and understand a balance sheet and speak business as well as developer talk in one breath. I would consider myself a true hybrid. Yet, most dont care and the ones that do are waning quickly.
If you're located in the Midatlantic States of the US, you need a few good recruiters to help (check out Indeed.com as well, it will explain itself nicely). Right now they're asking me to slash my rates or else they go to India, China, Vietnam even Lithuania!! And by slash rates I mean from $100/hr to less than $30, some even less than $20. After I take out healthcare, mortgage, car(gas), food and simple business expenses (software, internet, etc), there is nothing left from $25/hr. Nothing. Its crazy. Um, this was a subtle but important point of what I said: they want you IN HOUSE. $100/hour consulting work is dying rapidly as a result (one of the jobs I recently interviewed for was to sepcifically avoid retaining a consultant any longer than I needed to jumpstart my own project). They'll pay part or all of your benefits, but they want you as theirs, not shared, and right now salaries in this area are running $60-85k with benefits. This won't support your current lifestyle, I'm guessing, but it beats the heck out of $12000/year or "may I take your order, please?". However, you're not going to get rich doing it.
You sure are right. Some ways of doing the business are changing, but the need for talented software developers is not going away.
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Pete Appleton wrote:
RTFM. That's how we learnt.
I "learnt" before there was any manuals to read. ;) Back in the late 70's working for Quadram I had to write device-drivers for PC's running DOS 1.1 before there WERE any "how-to" books on the subject! You had to take the Microsoft (or IBM) documentation and provided source-code examples and learn the difference between the types of drivers and how to code them. Before that it was writing FORTRAN IV on a PDP-11 and CDC Cyber-74. RTFM? No M to RTF! mov ax, 4C00h int 21h -CB :)
The documentation you're talking about was the FM I was referring to ... previously came in the form of large, ring-bound dead trees much of which just said "This page left intentionally blank" but now comes in various electronic formats that decay faster. IE - the FM, not one of the zillion "If you can't be bothered to RTFM, this explains it" books there are now. Yup, I learnt back at that time, too! Part of my learning actually came from reverse engineering CP/M :-D .loop ld bc,0003h ld hl,[2600h] int 21h djnz .loop
-- What's a signature?
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Why is that? Because some developer in India told ME to stop whining the other day. This is how he put it: "An average developer in India earns the equivalent of $1000 USD a month, gross pay. If you want to match or beat that then I would be willing to bet you'd get the contracts in America. Otherwise, you simply wont". So....... thats what we're being reduced to people. We're being reduced to $12,000 a year employees. People in WALMART make about that. Mc Donalds. Borders. And they dont have 1/10th of the pressure. So, yea, I too am looking for a new career. This one has been pulled from under my feet.
Well you should not. There are a lot of good positions for someone with CS skills. No matter what, there is a limit to what can be sent abroad, and the shortage of trained people in the us is and will remain acute. So I think your views are quite exagerated. Do a little research, and you'll find companies who need in-house people with decent skills.
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Bottom line, those of us who know not only how to code, but to write elegant code will always be in high demand. There are plenty of jobs in companies that use proper interviewing and weeding to find the diamonds in that mountain of sand that apply. I've never had a problem when I wanted to make a move.
Interesting..... Reading this has made me realise how much Google has destroyed my ability to really write code that I understand (in the sense that I wrote it from scratch after researching a book). I started with USCD Pascal on an Apple ][e, then to VAXes in univ. and thens to PCs (C, and now degenerated to VB.NET...), so I've been doing it long enough to remember gopher.... It's been a long time since I looked at a book to figure out the way to code something as against Googling to see if somebody else has done it already. D. -------- The Good Old Days - Fast FTP to a site with a huge collection of GIFs.... hold on....
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The documentation you're talking about was the FM I was referring to ... previously came in the form of large, ring-bound dead trees much of which just said "This page left intentionally blank" but now comes in various electronic formats that decay faster. IE - the FM, not one of the zillion "If you can't be bothered to RTFM, this explains it" books there are now. Yup, I learnt back at that time, too! Part of my learning actually came from reverse engineering CP/M :-D .loop ld bc,0003h ld hl,[2600h] int 21h djnz .loop
-- What's a signature?
Pete Appleton wrote:
The documentation you're talking about was the FM I was referring to ... previously came in the form of large, ring-bound dead trees much of which just said "This page left intentionally blank" but now comes in various electronic formats that decay faster. IE - the FM, not one of the zillion "If you can't be bothered to RTFM, this explains it" books there are now. Yup, I learnt back at that time, too! Part of my learning actually came from reverse engineering CP/M
Programming sure was fun back then, wasn't it? It's still OK - but back then it was more of an adventure. Later! -CB :)
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...Or math, which is where I think the fundamental problem lies. I work at a University and teach a couple of classes and our computer science classes have been getting smaller from enrolling freshman, but the real eye opener is the transfer from Computer Science to Digital Media (web development, graphics design...). Basically, kids are saying, "I like games and love browsing the internet, I think I'd like to learn about computers." They quickly realize Calculus 1 is way over their head and shift over to a degree that requires no math, but still has everything to do with computers. So, in summary, I don't think our pre-collegiate schools (high school, middle school, elementary school) are preparing our youth for Math like we were 10 years ago (and I'm only 27).
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UD wrote:
25 years of development and, not only head-down/hands-on development, but business experience (across hospitality, accounting, financial, utilities, medical and machinery to name a few). I can read and understand a balance sheet and speak business as well as developer talk in one breath. I would consider myself a true hybrid. Yet, most dont care and the ones that do are waning quickly.
If you're located in the Midatlantic States of the US, you need a few good recruiters to help (check out Indeed.com as well, it will explain itself nicely). Right now they're asking me to slash my rates or else they go to India, China, Vietnam even Lithuania!! And by slash rates I mean from $100/hr to less than $30, some even less than $20. After I take out healthcare, mortgage, car(gas), food and simple business expenses (software, internet, etc), there is nothing left from $25/hr. Nothing. Its crazy. Um, this was a subtle but important point of what I said: they want you IN HOUSE. $100/hour consulting work is dying rapidly as a result (one of the jobs I recently interviewed for was to sepcifically avoid retaining a consultant any longer than I needed to jumpstart my own project). They'll pay part or all of your benefits, but they want you as theirs, not shared, and right now salaries in this area are running $60-85k with benefits. This won't support your current lifestyle, I'm guessing, but it beats the heck out of $12000/year or "may I take your order, please?". However, you're not going to get rich doing it.
"but they want you as theirs, not shared" I think that says it all. I dont want to be "theirs" anymore. I did that. I've been there. I put in my time. I worked those long nights and weekends without pay. Starting in the early 80's and worked my butt off 50, 60 hours a week for a "salary w/benefits" job and got laid off at the hint of lower profits, numerous times. I heard all the BS that a captive employer can tell me. 60-85K sounds nice but when you take out the unpaid OT, the fact that you really can not go on vacation because when you DO take a few days off you come back to find out there's a ton of work on your desk and/or you get an attitude for taking time off, the pagers going off in the middle of the night, the weekends, etc - its just not worth it. The salary is ultimately reduced to a $35K job and my fiance makes more than that as a secretary with NO pressure. She leaves her job at 5pm and on the weekends never once thinks about it. Now, some will say that self-employed contract worker types put in 60+ hours a week and cant take vacation either. This is only partially true. While I work my butt off, still, and probably more so than when I worked "captive" employment, the rewards far outweigh the negatives. First, I bill for every 15 minutes of my time. Second, I get to shape the project, speak to VPs and CEOs, interface with CIOs - directly.. Not through some layer of management that doesnt care or know squat. I get to develop the product and deliver it myself. I also control my own schedule. If I want a 2 week period off then I build it in. If I want 5 or 6 weeks off then I build it in. I know this isnt for a lot of folks. Its not simple but it is damn rewarding to earn 6-figures and to have earned it all on my own. No recruiters, no large company giving me a desk and priorities that shift from hour to hour. I am definitely in a drought at this point and living off of savings right now. I might consider captive employment for the time being but I recently turned down a position at 90K because they not only wanted me to rewrite the entire internal system but they wanted me to train the only other developer there on new technologies, hardware + software, mentor him, work very closely with marketing and sales to the point where I would go out on new sales calls - so that I would be available on the spot to determine if the delivery of the product was technically achievable (the product IS data, itself).. Apparently sales and marketing were/are wasting a lot of money over-prom
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"but they want you as theirs, not shared" I think that says it all. I dont want to be "theirs" anymore. I did that. I've been there. I put in my time. I worked those long nights and weekends without pay. Starting in the early 80's and worked my butt off 50, 60 hours a week for a "salary w/benefits" job and got laid off at the hint of lower profits, numerous times. I heard all the BS that a captive employer can tell me. 60-85K sounds nice but when you take out the unpaid OT, the fact that you really can not go on vacation because when you DO take a few days off you come back to find out there's a ton of work on your desk and/or you get an attitude for taking time off, the pagers going off in the middle of the night, the weekends, etc - its just not worth it. The salary is ultimately reduced to a $35K job and my fiance makes more than that as a secretary with NO pressure. She leaves her job at 5pm and on the weekends never once thinks about it. Now, some will say that self-employed contract worker types put in 60+ hours a week and cant take vacation either. This is only partially true. While I work my butt off, still, and probably more so than when I worked "captive" employment, the rewards far outweigh the negatives. First, I bill for every 15 minutes of my time. Second, I get to shape the project, speak to VPs and CEOs, interface with CIOs - directly.. Not through some layer of management that doesnt care or know squat. I get to develop the product and deliver it myself. I also control my own schedule. If I want a 2 week period off then I build it in. If I want 5 or 6 weeks off then I build it in. I know this isnt for a lot of folks. Its not simple but it is damn rewarding to earn 6-figures and to have earned it all on my own. No recruiters, no large company giving me a desk and priorities that shift from hour to hour. I am definitely in a drought at this point and living off of savings right now. I might consider captive employment for the time being but I recently turned down a position at 90K because they not only wanted me to rewrite the entire internal system but they wanted me to train the only other developer there on new technologies, hardware + software, mentor him, work very closely with marketing and sales to the point where I would go out on new sales calls - so that I would be available on the spot to determine if the delivery of the product was technically achievable (the product IS data, itself).. Apparently sales and marketing were/are wasting a lot of money over-prom
UD wrote:
Sure, I might have stress right now looking for work but, in the end I thought about it... I am in complete control. I can change my career, develop a product and sell it or sit back and live off the money I was able to save earning 6 figures for the past 5 years. I think in time this oursourcing thing will turn around. Especially since people over seas are getting a bit more daring and asking for higher rates. Eventually near-shore outsourcing will get into full gear and eventually it will come back in-sourcing once companies realize that there are no silver bullets and our tax-base has been so badly eroded that they cant raise gas or cigarette or alcohol taxes enough to pay the bills of the nation.
Very true. It's not for me. I have excellent communication skills but minding my own business would drive me nuts without an administrative assistant...and my wife, who is one, has this phobia about filing at home LOL...Her early retirement opportunity is coming up in a few years, so we are keeping aware, but I'll tell you this: I'm not ready to bet my family on the IT consultant market right now...in about a year and a half, two years, after the floating talent has been sucked from the available workforce and everyone is hunkered down to sit out the recession, consultants will be in vogue again; until then, if a consultant doesn't have some long-term recession-proof contracts, they may need to get out of the rain for a little bit. As for your client/wannabe boss, they are like too many in business who see our skills are a commodity - some of our skills are "straight off the shelf", but the best of us bring a distinct edge with us that these businessmen secretly hope to get along with the commodity, then to pay sweatshop wages and benefits for top-office work. That's how I got my first permanent programming job. I won't, can't do it again, and agree with your decision not to. My current employer offers much better benefits than does your attempted employer (I work for a large corporation). I'm very comfortable here except for my 90-mile round trip every day. The longer I stay, the more problems with interesting opportunities wind up on my desk. Due to the workload and the software gymnastics required occasionally, I'm relatively secure against layoff (something that cannot be said for the phone people who work for us). I keep a line out for positions of similar security closer to my home, but haven't found one yet.
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Ray Cassick wrote:
YIKES! Do I win for the longest thread contest?
:laugh: You get my vote.
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funny i read your post just today. this morning i lectured a group of statisticians "VBA in Excel 2007". i was told by them and their boss that they _already_ knew programming, familiar with macros in excel 2003, and just needed to learn the 2007 way for tasks they were doing, plus how to do complex structured sampling for election statistics, in VBA. lets just say if-then-else was a fascinating concept, much better than what they get in excel formulas. ( ! ).
Eric D. Georgiades Networking Professional / Multimedia Developer
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...Or math, which is where I think the fundamental problem lies. I work at a University and teach a couple of classes and our computer science classes have been getting smaller from enrolling freshman, but the real eye opener is the transfer from Computer Science to Digital Media (web development, graphics design...). Basically, kids are saying, "I like games and love browsing the internet, I think I'd like to learn about computers." They quickly realize Calculus 1 is way over their head and shift over to a degree that requires no math, but still has everything to do with computers. So, in summary, I don't think our pre-collegiate schools (high school, middle school, elementary school) are preparing our youth for Math like we were 10 years ago (and I'm only 27).