Obama wants to limit how much Americans cat eat and use air conditioning?
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Of course I cannot guarantee that, nobody can. We can only try and hope. I don't for a moment think this is going to be easy. It is going to be monumentally difficult. I'd rather try though than just be a defeatist and go out in a blaze of glory.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul Watson wrote:
go out in a blaze of glory
well usually to go out in a blaze of glory, you have got to be trying hard and reaching high. I'd like to see us stop pissing around with the little solutions like raising the thermostat a few degrees which market pressures are likely to take care of anyway. Electric cars are an excellent start, now lets try electric-steamers for long distance travel. Let's restart the nuclear power program and work out a way of disposing with spent fuel rods in the sun. Lets figure out how to put solar panels in LEO and beam the power down to giant receptor farms on earth. Let's industrialize the moon if its got water or Mars if it doesn't but get our factories off planet. Let's colonize the asteroids, and relieve population pressure - at least from the countries that have the sense to restrict their breeding. Lets stop wasting time and money trying to hold back the ocean from a city 17 feet below sea level or providing billions of gigawatts to Vegas to light up the night and billions of gallons of water so they grow grass in the desert. There's a commercial being played right now, I believe to encourage retirement planning. It shows a giant dam with a tiny leak. An inspector 'fixes' the leak with his chewing gum - for about ten seconds. Most of the proposals Al Gore and his cronies propose are exactly that - chewing gum that is supposed to withstand thousands of ppsi. If that's all mankind can come up with - then fuck it - eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. (The orgy starts at my house!) BUT if we can use the brains we have to eliminate the problems altogether, then hell yes, sacrifice will not only be called for, I believe that it will be made willingly by Americans, Brits, Chinese, Indians, Brazilians, Russians - even Frenchmen (jk). We are not stupid, we only have stupid leaders.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I disagree entirely. Wealth does the most good for the most people when allowed to circulate freely in the economy. 'Fat Cats' don't put that money in their pockets. They spend it. They invest it. All of which provides jobs and liberty to an entire society.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
This planet we call home has finite resources. And they have to be managed properly as failure to do so will cause unnecessary misery to many.
Granted, but if we cannot create scaleable energy supplies, and expand into space, than there is a 100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Granted, but if we cannot create scaleable energy supplies, and expand into space, than there is a 100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case.
A-bleeping-men!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The amazing thing is that Obama and McCain both seem to be running to see which one of them can lose the election the fastest.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
modified on Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:47 PM
Stan Shannon wrote:
The amazing thing is that Obama and McCain both seem to be running to see which one of them can lose the election the fastest.
I've noticed that - and their senior-most elected supporters are helping as hard as they can - Reid/Pelosi provide excellent reasons to vote for McCain every day, while Bush labors far into the night to insure a Democratic Whitehouse next year.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I disagree entirely. Wealth does the most good for the most people when allowed to circulate freely in the economy. 'Fat Cats' don't put that money in their pockets. They spend it. They invest it. All of which provides jobs and liberty to an entire society.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
This planet we call home has finite resources. And they have to be managed properly as failure to do so will cause unnecessary misery to many.
Granted, but if we cannot create scaleable energy supplies, and expand into space, than there is a 100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise.
Stan Shannon wrote:
'Fat Cats' don't put that money in their pockets. They spend it. They invest it. All of which provides jobs and liberty to an entire society.
That is the ideal, but, I rather suspect that those who don't have will look upon those who have with envious eyes and thieving minds and this may not be politically motivated, but could be.
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Paul Watson wrote:
It is also a resource problem and nuclear fusion doesn't solve that. You'll have to start strip mining the rest of the solar system and last time I checked we can barely get guys into orbit.
Yes, but energy is the primary reason we cannot do that. We need to solve the energy problem and than solve the space problem. Or we are toast in any case.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but energy is the primary reason we cannot do that. We need to solve the energy problem and than solve the space problem. Or we are toast in any case.
Well, I'm not so sure I want us to be technically capable of strip mining the solar system. Access to energy and resources does not solve our real problems. If anything our current ways are what have made us easy targets. Our militaries built on our economies and culture are unable to root out peasants in caves. We are unable to convince the people around stone throwing murderers that what we preach is a better way. Those that we do convince end up threatening our way of life through consequences we hadn't thought of. I don't loathe us, I just think we aren't quite so right as we think. The aspirations I grew up with seem trivial. Many of the institutions we are meant to revere and support are on the verge of leaving us for dead (just read that pension thread above.) I want to survive but so do 7 billion other humans. Right now it looks like there is going to be a fight. I'd like to find a different way.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Who ever comes up first with a fusion power plant that works gets to hold the patent for the next several centuries.
It isn't just an energy problem, Stan. It is also a resource problem and nuclear fusion doesn't solve that. You'll have to start strip mining the rest of the solar system and last time I checked we can barely get guys into orbit. As much as I dislike "excess profits" I do agree that regulation/taxation etc. is not the way. Some cut-backs now will help us survive long enough to solve these problems.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul Watson wrote:
last time I checked we can barely get guys into orbit.
Only as long as we continue to use 1960 technology. Rockets run by nuclear fission are more fuel efficient, and much much lighter, than chemical rockets. This means that, nuclear spaceships could travel twice as fast as our current chemical spacecraft. And a nuclear powered craft could maintain powered flight for 18 years using today's engineering. The nearest source of He3,needed if we are ever going to use fusion, is on the moon. Photonic laser thrusters already in prototype seem to hold promise for LEO to Mars in a week.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise.
Stan Shannon wrote:
'Fat Cats' don't put that money in their pockets. They spend it. They invest it. All of which provides jobs and liberty to an entire society.
That is the ideal, but, I rather suspect that those who don't have will look upon those who have with envious eyes and thieving minds and this may not be politically motivated, but could be.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise.
Perhaps as an ant like collective of some kind. But what would be the point?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Paul Watson wrote:
last time I checked we can barely get guys into orbit.
Only as long as we continue to use 1960 technology. Rockets run by nuclear fission are more fuel efficient, and much much lighter, than chemical rockets. This means that, nuclear spaceships could travel twice as fast as our current chemical spacecraft. And a nuclear powered craft could maintain powered flight for 18 years using today's engineering. The nearest source of He3,needed if we are ever going to use fusion, is on the moon. Photonic laser thrusters already in prototype seem to hold promise for LEO to Mars in a week.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I didn't think it was just a propulsion problem.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
100% chance of ultimate collapse of human civilization in any case
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise.
Stan Shannon wrote:
'Fat Cats' don't put that money in their pockets. They spend it. They invest it. All of which provides jobs and liberty to an entire society.
That is the ideal, but, I rather suspect that those who don't have will look upon those who have with envious eyes and thieving minds and this may not be politically motivated, but could be.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise
Certainly not with the population that this planet tries to support. Long before Global Warming drowns us, or the Sahara takes over more of Africa, the lack of food will begin eliminating overpopulation in that very efficient manner that nature uses. We are beginning to see that happen today. Switching from corn to sugar cane is not going to put rice in the bellies of the starving east. Once the population drops to a sustainable level (Famine will be aided by War and Pestilence) we'll be able to support the fewer of us in a style that may be different but not necessarily unrecognizable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise.
Perhaps as an ant like collective of some kind. But what would be the point?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I didn't think it was just a propulsion problem.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul Watson wrote:
I didn't think it was just a propulsion problem
For getting to the moon, Mars, and the Asteroids - absolutely. There may be problems colonizing them, but even those will be lessened if we have the kind of power that I have been talking about.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The amazing thing is that Obama and McCain both seem to be running to see which one of them can lose the election the fastest.
I've noticed that - and their senior-most elected supporters are helping as hard as they can - Reid/Pelosi provide excellent reasons to vote for McCain every day, while Bush labors far into the night to insure a Democratic Whitehouse next year.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I've noticed that - and their senior-most elected supporters are helping as hard as they can - Reid/Pelosi provide excellent reasons to vote for McCain every day, while Bush labors far into the night to insure a Democratic Whitehouse next year.
Seems like McCain probably has the best chance though because the democrats are split between Obama and Hillary, and a percentage of each of their supporters says they will vote for McCain if their candidate does not get the nomination. And like Joe Lieberman said, Obama and Hillary are not moderates, they are "hyperpartisan" leftists. That probably gives McCain an advantage because being a moderate he can get conservative democrat votes, but Obama or Hillary have little chance of getting republican votes.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
With proper management, human civilization can survive but not necessarily in a format which we today recognise
Certainly not with the population that this planet tries to support. Long before Global Warming drowns us, or the Sahara takes over more of Africa, the lack of food will begin eliminating overpopulation in that very efficient manner that nature uses. We are beginning to see that happen today. Switching from corn to sugar cane is not going to put rice in the bellies of the starving east. Once the population drops to a sustainable level (Famine will be aided by War and Pestilence) we'll be able to support the fewer of us in a style that may be different but not necessarily unrecognizable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
the lack of food will begin eliminating overpopulation in that very efficient manner that nature uses
and
Oakman wrote:
Once the population drops to a sustainable level (Famine will be aided by War and Pestilence) we'll be able to support the fewer of us in a style that may be different but not necessarily unrecognizable
Not that very long ago I used similar words but Espeir, Stan and others made it known that this is not a problem at all now or in the medium to long term future. It won't be allowed to happen, or so I was told.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but energy is the primary reason we cannot do that. We need to solve the energy problem and than solve the space problem. Or we are toast in any case.
Well, I'm not so sure I want us to be technically capable of strip mining the solar system. Access to energy and resources does not solve our real problems. If anything our current ways are what have made us easy targets. Our militaries built on our economies and culture are unable to root out peasants in caves. We are unable to convince the people around stone throwing murderers that what we preach is a better way. Those that we do convince end up threatening our way of life through consequences we hadn't thought of. I don't loathe us, I just think we aren't quite so right as we think. The aspirations I grew up with seem trivial. Many of the institutions we are meant to revere and support are on the verge of leaving us for dead (just read that pension thread above.) I want to survive but so do 7 billion other humans. Right now it looks like there is going to be a fight. I'd like to find a different way.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul Watson wrote:
Well, I'm not so sure I want us to be technically capable of strip mining the solar system. Access to energy and resources does not solve our real problems.
A. Why not? You think the asteroids are some sort of wilderness more in need of protection than Alaska? B. Who do you mean when you say, "Us???" China is heading for outer space right now - and don't think they will use hydrogen and liquid oxygen to get there just like Buzz Aldrin did.
Paul Watson wrote:
Our militaries built on our economies and culture are unable to root out peasants in caves.
The army we had in 1970 could do that (and did do that) every day. Do a Google on Vietnam and Tunnel Rats. It's not our armies, its the idiots like Bush1, Clinton and Bush2 who destroyed the finest fighting force in the world. Reimpose the draft like Charlie Rangel wants and we'll fight fewer wars, but those we fight, we'll fight far better.
Paul Watson wrote:
I want to survive but so do 7 billion other humans.
One thing is for sure. It ain't gonna chance change cause we up the thermostat in the summer.
Paul Watson wrote:
Right now it looks like there is going to be a fight. I'd like to find a different way.
We either remove the reasons for fighting - and that means, IMHO, moving out into the solar system; or we remove those who want to fight us. (With luck, famine will do it for us.) If the best third choice that can be offered is smaller cars, then I'm going to buy a bigger gun.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:09 PM
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Oakman wrote:
the lack of food will begin eliminating overpopulation in that very efficient manner that nature uses
and
Oakman wrote:
Once the population drops to a sustainable level (Famine will be aided by War and Pestilence) we'll be able to support the fewer of us in a style that may be different but not necessarily unrecognizable
Not that very long ago I used similar words but Espeir, Stan and others made it known that this is not a problem at all now or in the medium to long term future. It won't be allowed to happen, or so I was told.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Espeir, Stan and others made it known that this is not a problem at all now or in the medium to long term future.
Well, I got your back. :-D And to be fair, they may not have been able to anticipate the rapid devaluation of the dollar, the increase in the cost of fuel, and the bonuses offered to American farmers to stop growing food and start growing fuel. I think the problem is a lot closer than medium to long term. Already a number of countries that have been exporters have slapped controls on the amount of food they let leave their borders.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
I've noticed that - and their senior-most elected supporters are helping as hard as they can - Reid/Pelosi provide excellent reasons to vote for McCain every day, while Bush labors far into the night to insure a Democratic Whitehouse next year.
Seems like McCain probably has the best chance though because the democrats are split between Obama and Hillary, and a percentage of each of their supporters says they will vote for McCain if their candidate does not get the nomination. And like Joe Lieberman said, Obama and Hillary are not moderates, they are "hyperpartisan" leftists. That probably gives McCain an advantage because being a moderate he can get conservative democrat votes, but Obama or Hillary have little chance of getting republican votes.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
DemonPossessed wrote:
That probably gives McCain an advantage because being a moderate he can get conservative democrat votes, but Obama or Hillary have little chance of getting republican votes.
From your mouth to ________________________'s ear (fill in the blank as you choose.) The best we can hope for, it seems to me is a Republican President vetoing the actions of a Democratic Congress, while the Democratic Congress refuses to give the Republican President everything he wishes. In other words, just like that last two years. :(( Of course, if the Dems get a veto proof congress - and they very well might - it's Katie bar the door time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Paul Watson wrote:
Well, I'm not so sure I want us to be technically capable of strip mining the solar system. Access to energy and resources does not solve our real problems.
A. Why not? You think the asteroids are some sort of wilderness more in need of protection than Alaska? B. Who do you mean when you say, "Us???" China is heading for outer space right now - and don't think they will use hydrogen and liquid oxygen to get there just like Buzz Aldrin did.
Paul Watson wrote:
Our militaries built on our economies and culture are unable to root out peasants in caves.
The army we had in 1970 could do that (and did do that) every day. Do a Google on Vietnam and Tunnel Rats. It's not our armies, its the idiots like Bush1, Clinton and Bush2 who destroyed the finest fighting force in the world. Reimpose the draft like Charlie Rangel wants and we'll fight fewer wars, but those we fight, we'll fight far better.
Paul Watson wrote:
I want to survive but so do 7 billion other humans.
One thing is for sure. It ain't gonna chance change cause we up the thermostat in the summer.
Paul Watson wrote:
Right now it looks like there is going to be a fight. I'd like to find a different way.
We either remove the reasons for fighting - and that means, IMHO, moving out into the solar system; or we remove those who want to fight us. (With luck, famine will do it for us.) If the best third choice that can be offered is smaller cars, then I'm going to buy a bigger gun.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:09 PM
Oakman wrote:
Do a Google on Vietnam and Tunnel Rats. It's not our armies, its the idiots like Bush1, Clinton and Bush2 who destroyed the finest fighting force in the world. Reimpose the draft like Charlie Rangel wants and we'll fight fewer wars, but those we fight, we'll fight far better.
I agree with you and Rangel. However, it takes one more thing - national unity. If you remember, we lost in Vietnam for no other reason than the enemy knew they could out last our political will. We simply cannot allow some political faction to demonize the leadership even when that leadership is flawed and makes mistakes.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
the lack of food will begin eliminating overpopulation in that very efficient manner that nature uses
and
Oakman wrote:
Once the population drops to a sustainable level (Famine will be aided by War and Pestilence) we'll be able to support the fewer of us in a style that may be different but not necessarily unrecognizable
Not that very long ago I used similar words but Espeir, Stan and others made it known that this is not a problem at all now or in the medium to long term future. It won't be allowed to happen, or so I was told.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Not that very long ago I used similar words but Espeir, Stan and others made it known that this is not a problem at all now or in the medium to long term future. It won't be allowed to happen, or so I was told.
I have certainly made no such contrary arguments. There is an argument that this planet can sustain far more people than it does by allowing for ever more free market innovation and economic growth. Which I think would probably occur with less government interference in the international markets. Still, one of my main arguments for years has been that most of our problems are solvable by simply letting nature take its course. Its just that I get in trouble for pointing out that most of the excess population that would die off would necessarily consist of ethnic minorities, which obviously cannot be allowed to happen until the white folks have finished breeding themselves out of existence.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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DemonPossessed wrote:
That probably gives McCain an advantage because being a moderate he can get conservative democrat votes, but Obama or Hillary have little chance of getting republican votes.
From your mouth to ________________________'s ear (fill in the blank as you choose.) The best we can hope for, it seems to me is a Republican President vetoing the actions of a Democratic Congress, while the Democratic Congress refuses to give the Republican President everything he wishes. In other words, just like that last two years. :(( Of course, if the Dems get a veto proof congress - and they very well might - it's Katie bar the door time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The best we can hope for, it seems to me is a Republican President vetoing the actions of a Democratic Congress, while the Democratic Congress refuses to give the Republican President everything he wishes.
TO quote someone else on this thread, A-Bleeping-Men. There's nothing like absolute gridlock at the federal level to make the rest of the country hum right along. The stock market would soar.
Mike - typical white guy. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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DemonPossessed wrote:
That probably gives McCain an advantage because being a moderate he can get conservative democrat votes, but Obama or Hillary have little chance of getting republican votes.
From your mouth to ________________________'s ear (fill in the blank as you choose.) The best we can hope for, it seems to me is a Republican President vetoing the actions of a Democratic Congress, while the Democratic Congress refuses to give the Republican President everything he wishes. In other words, just like that last two years. :(( Of course, if the Dems get a veto proof congress - and they very well might - it's Katie bar the door time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The best we can hope for, it seems to me is a Republican President vetoing the actions of a Democratic Congress, while the Democratic Congress refuses to give the Republican President everything he wishes. In other words, just like that last two years. Of course, if the Dems get a veto proof congress - and they very well might - it's Katie bar the door time.
Frankly, I hope the dems take the entire thing. I think that most of the leadership of that party are hard core marxists and 60s radicals and suddenly finding themselves unopposed in power would not be able to restrain a feeding freenzy of social reform which would result in an extreme backlash. If a true conservative coalition could be rebuilt in the meantime, it might be well placed to assume power next go round. I think thats the best anyone can hope for.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.