OPEC Graph
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Third, when some country offers to bring your democracy, you find a hole to hide in. :D
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
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People will just start driving off of forecourts without paying if it continues. If enough people do it the law will be powerless to stop them and then maybe, just maybe, Fatty B and Capt. Darling will take a hint. Although on Radio 4 this morning a spokesman said the Government is "listening". Well, that's alright then :)
martin_hughes wrote:
Although on Radio 4 this morning a spokesman said the Government is "listening".
Well, it's easier than doing.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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martin_hughes wrote:
Although on Radio 4 this morning a spokesman said the Government is "listening".
Well, it's easier than doing.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Yeah, but they even manage to cock the listening up :)
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We knew this already, there are so many pointless petitions to lower the taxes. The government are too reliant on this tax now. My most recent fill-up was £50 on my little hatchback... and it wasn't that empty... and it didn't even click off automatically, I just gave up at £50.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
My last fill up was over £80 for 70litres of diesel. The saving grace for me was that I then did 500 miles @ 60miles to the gallon and will claim that back at 40p/mile - so I'll claim £200 back and still have enough fuel for a couple of weeks of normal commuting! I'm aware the mix of units might confuse some, but in the UK we drive "miles", buy "litres" and compare fuel efficiency in "miles per gallon" :wtf:
Regards, Ray
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norm .net wrote:
I see the UK population and being stung by our own government.
That graph is well out of date if it is suggesting $1.25 per litre of petrol at the pumps. I filled up at the weekend and paid £1.15 (over $2.00) per litre. It now costs me £10 ($20) more to fill the tank than it did a year ago. The cost of fuel is totally absurd. About a year or two ago the difference in price between a litre of deisel and petrol was about a penny or two. Now the gap is much wider! No wonder haulage companies are being hit hard. No wonder inflation is beginning to spiral out of control if it costs vastly more to transport it to the shops.
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Fuel tax is currently 50.35p per litre on Ultra-Low Sulphur Petrol. That means the government is taking 43.8% of the price as fuel duty. In addition there's 17.5% VAT, so the majority of the price is still tax. However, the VAT is proportional to the overall price - as crude prices rise the VAT rises in proportion. The large fuel duty actually acts as a dampener in percentage terms: a doubling of crude prices has had a much smaller effect overall. The duty is there to act as an economic discouragement to excessive consumption (this doesn't, unfortunately, stop a lot of people). I've started a petition (waiting for confirmation) on the PM's website asking the government to intervene in and regulate the London ICE Exchange oil futures market. Long-term oil contracts between companies, and transfers between production and refining divisions of the same company, are priced in terms of the oil futures prices on ICE and New York's NYMEX. These markets are supposed to represent open trading, for the small amount of oil that isn't going straight to refineries. However, it's possible to redeem the contract for cash at the end of the period, at the current index price, rather than for oil. (Source[^].) Because NYMEX is regulated, the US West Texas Intermediate blend is also traded on ICE. NYMEX is lightly-regulated: the regulator, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission permits the speculator to only put 6% of the value of the contract in up-front, a gearing ratio of 16:1. Currently that's about $8. If the price rises only 2%, by $2.56 on a barrel at $128, the investor makes a 32% return. ICE is unregulated. Source[^]. From a personal perspective, my Ford Focus was beginning to show its age, at seven years - it recently needed a new coil pack which may have been related to an unexpected deep puddle on a very wet day - so I decided to trade it in. I've bought a Toyota Prius. With sensible driving it's showing around 59mpg Imperial on its own graph, although I've not yet calculated the real consumption for the last tank. The previous tank came out at 55mpg.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
The cost of fuel is totally absurd. About a year or two ago the difference in price between a litre of deisel and petrol was about a penny or two. Now the gap is much wider!
I suppose you're saying that diesel is more expensive, right? I mean, that's the trend lately... My question is... How can diesel, which is cheaper to produce, be more expensive than petrol?
To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities.
http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html[^]
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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People will just start driving off of forecourts without paying if it continues. If enough people do it the law will be powerless to stop them and then maybe, just maybe, Fatty B and Capt. Darling will take a hint. Although on Radio 4 this morning a spokesman said the Government is "listening". Well, that's alright then :)
martin_hughes wrote:
maybe, just maybe, Fatty B and Capt. Darling will take a hint.
No they won't. I heard that if someone drives off the forecourt without paying then it is the petrol station owner (and remember most are franchises) pays. They pay for the lost fuel, the pay the VAT and they pay the fuel duty. If people just drive off forecourts all that will happen is that petrol station owners will go out of business and that will just hit the consumer.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
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Fuel tax is currently 50.35p per litre on Ultra-Low Sulphur Petrol. That means the government is taking 43.8% of the price as fuel duty. In addition there's 17.5% VAT, so the majority of the price is still tax. However, the VAT is proportional to the overall price - as crude prices rise the VAT rises in proportion. The large fuel duty actually acts as a dampener in percentage terms: a doubling of crude prices has had a much smaller effect overall. The duty is there to act as an economic discouragement to excessive consumption (this doesn't, unfortunately, stop a lot of people). I've started a petition (waiting for confirmation) on the PM's website asking the government to intervene in and regulate the London ICE Exchange oil futures market. Long-term oil contracts between companies, and transfers between production and refining divisions of the same company, are priced in terms of the oil futures prices on ICE and New York's NYMEX. These markets are supposed to represent open trading, for the small amount of oil that isn't going straight to refineries. However, it's possible to redeem the contract for cash at the end of the period, at the current index price, rather than for oil. (Source[^].) Because NYMEX is regulated, the US West Texas Intermediate blend is also traded on ICE. NYMEX is lightly-regulated: the regulator, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission permits the speculator to only put 6% of the value of the contract in up-front, a gearing ratio of 16:1. Currently that's about $8. If the price rises only 2%, by $2.56 on a barrel at $128, the investor makes a 32% return. ICE is unregulated. Source[^]. From a personal perspective, my Ford Focus was beginning to show its age, at seven years - it recently needed a new coil pack which may have been related to an unexpected deep puddle on a very wet day - so I decided to trade it in. I've bought a Toyota Prius. With sensible driving it's showing around 59mpg Imperial on its own graph, although I've not yet calculated the real consumption for the last tank. The previous tank came out at 55mpg.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
Mike Dimmick wrote:
I've bought a Toyota Prius. With sensible driving it's showing around 59mpg Imperial on its own graph, although I've not yet calculated the real consumption for the last tank. The previous tank came out at 55mpg.
Nice. The best I've managed out of my wee Toyota Yaris is 54.5 MPG with some careful driving and a tank of super-unleaded (99 octane) fuel. My parents have switched to the more expensive deisel because they get more milage out of it and it works out slightly cheaper per mile.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
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No, it was wit, humor, a joke even.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
martin_hughes wrote:
maybe, just maybe, Fatty B and Capt. Darling will take a hint.
No they won't. I heard that if someone drives off the forecourt without paying then it is the petrol station owner (and remember most are franchises) pays. They pay for the lost fuel, the pay the VAT and they pay the fuel duty. If people just drive off forecourts all that will happen is that petrol station owners will go out of business and that will just hit the consumer.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
the pay the VAT and they pay the fuel duty
Paying tax on nicked fuel? Only in Britain!
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Mike Dimmick wrote:
I've bought a Toyota Prius. With sensible driving it's showing around 59mpg Imperial on its own graph, although I've not yet calculated the real consumption for the last tank. The previous tank came out at 55mpg.
Nice. The best I've managed out of my wee Toyota Yaris is 54.5 MPG with some careful driving and a tank of super-unleaded (99 octane) fuel. My parents have switched to the more expensive deisel because they get more milage out of it and it works out slightly cheaper per mile.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
Super won't do much for your car. The octane rating (and it's not a proportion of octane to any other alkane) simply measures how much the fuel/air mixture can be compressed before it self-ignites, causing knocking. If the engine has a high compression ratio, it needs higher-octane fuel so that the engine doesn't knock (explode at the wrong time). Modern engines now contain anti-knocking devices which detect the knocks and change the timing, at the cost of reducing the engine power. See Wikipedia's Octane rating[^] article. That said, the 'super-unleaded' mix, because it's a different mix or has different additives, might contain a different amount of energy per litre. Diesel should always get higher mileage than petrol at least in part because the fuel has 13% higher energy per litre. In addition, diesel engines are slowed by putting less fuel into the airstream; petrol engines generally have to slowed by putting less fuel/air mix into the cylinder, which is done by reducing the diameter of the inlet. This causes a lower pressure and wastes energy - try sucking in air through a straw: it requires more effort to do it. The net effect is that diesels will use less fuel to provide a given torque below peak torque than a petrol engine will. The average load on most cars is far lower than the peak torque/peak efficiency point, as the engine is sized for the maximum load that might be required. Diesel costs about 10% more per litre than 95 RON petrol. The Prius, having otherwise a reasonably standard 1.5 litre Toyota VVT-i engine, keeps the inlet the same but actually keeps the inlet valve open during the 'compression' stroke, causing some of the fuel/air mix to be pushed back out again (the inlets are connected so this is drawn into the next cylinder's intake cycle). Mostly the Prius is about using the petrol engine more effectively than a standard car, improving the efficiency at the low and top ends, using a weird 'continuously variable' gearbox controlled by running electric motors or providing resistance to spinning those motors (as generators) to control the engine speed versus road speed, and using the electric motors to 'fill in' where the engine is inefficient or incapable of running (below 1000rpm). Obviously the ability to run on electric power only is also helpful, but all the power in the battery ultimately comes from the car's fuel.
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Super won't do much for your car. The octane rating (and it's not a proportion of octane to any other alkane) simply measures how much the fuel/air mixture can be compressed before it self-ignites, causing knocking. If the engine has a high compression ratio, it needs higher-octane fuel so that the engine doesn't knock (explode at the wrong time). Modern engines now contain anti-knocking devices which detect the knocks and change the timing, at the cost of reducing the engine power. See Wikipedia's Octane rating[^] article. That said, the 'super-unleaded' mix, because it's a different mix or has different additives, might contain a different amount of energy per litre. Diesel should always get higher mileage than petrol at least in part because the fuel has 13% higher energy per litre. In addition, diesel engines are slowed by putting less fuel into the airstream; petrol engines generally have to slowed by putting less fuel/air mix into the cylinder, which is done by reducing the diameter of the inlet. This causes a lower pressure and wastes energy - try sucking in air through a straw: it requires more effort to do it. The net effect is that diesels will use less fuel to provide a given torque below peak torque than a petrol engine will. The average load on most cars is far lower than the peak torque/peak efficiency point, as the engine is sized for the maximum load that might be required. Diesel costs about 10% more per litre than 95 RON petrol. The Prius, having otherwise a reasonably standard 1.5 litre Toyota VVT-i engine, keeps the inlet the same but actually keeps the inlet valve open during the 'compression' stroke, causing some of the fuel/air mix to be pushed back out again (the inlets are connected so this is drawn into the next cylinder's intake cycle). Mostly the Prius is about using the petrol engine more effectively than a standard car, improving the efficiency at the low and top ends, using a weird 'continuously variable' gearbox controlled by running electric motors or providing resistance to spinning those motors (as generators) to control the engine speed versus road speed, and using the electric motors to 'fill in' where the engine is inefficient or incapable of running (below 1000rpm). Obviously the ability to run on electric power only is also helpful, but all the power in the battery ultimately comes from the car's fuel.
Mike Dimmick wrote:
That said, the 'super-unleaded' mix, because it's a different mix or has different additives, might contain a different amount of energy per litre.
So you recon it is more likely the mix that is giving me the benefits rather than the higher octane rating? I ask because I've only ever got the fuel economy into the 50MPG range with super in the tank.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
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No, it was wit, humor, a joke even.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Mike Dimmick wrote:
That said, the 'super-unleaded' mix, because it's a different mix or has different additives, might contain a different amount of energy per litre.
So you recon it is more likely the mix that is giving me the benefits rather than the higher octane rating? I ask because I've only ever got the fuel economy into the 50MPG range with super in the tank.
Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) - (part 3) My website | Blog
It's really hard to say because fuel consumption varies so much with other factors. You need to input energy to make the car move. That energy comes from the car's fuel, but the engine's efficiency at converting fuel energy to kinetic energy depends on the engine speed and temperature (hot engines are more efficient, though I'm not sure exactly why this is - may be lower friction once the parts have expanded, for example, or simply that the fuel/air mix is hotter before the spark is applied and so combusts better). Short trips are inefficient as the engine never gets fully up to temperature. You need energy to accelerate, and to compensate for the energy transferred to the environment through friction with the air and with the road. The tyres' rolling resistance changes with tyre pressure, which in turn changes with temperature. (The resistance goes down with higher pressures; the pressure increases with higher temperatures.) You get lower fuel consumption (higher MPG) if you can maintain a constant speed (allowing for hills) rather than braking and accelerating. Lower speeds overall are better as the air resistance increases exponentially with speed. Having the windows open disrupts airflow and increases drag. Acceleration doesn't have to be very gentle. In fact accelerating too gently can be bad for fuel consumption as well as you're using the inefficient low part of the engine's efficiency curve. If you're not accelerating you generally want to shift up to the highest gear the car can maintain speed in - although it's converting energy less efficiently it's using less fuel per second overall. Wet roads require the tyres to act as pumps to push the water away from the contact surface. This requires additional energy. Because there are so many variables, the published consumption figures are based on a standard test, which is described here[^]. Firstly, note that it's carried out at relatively high temperatures, 20 - 30 degrees Celsius. Secondly, it's on a rolling road, so there is no air resistance. Some people have suggested reporting this as an index value (relative to some target figure, say 40mpg) rather than as an actual MPG value. The Prius particularly gets criticised for not being able to achieve the test's 65.7mpg, where other cars which don't have a consumption readou
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It's really hard to say because fuel consumption varies so much with other factors. You need to input energy to make the car move. That energy comes from the car's fuel, but the engine's efficiency at converting fuel energy to kinetic energy depends on the engine speed and temperature (hot engines are more efficient, though I'm not sure exactly why this is - may be lower friction once the parts have expanded, for example, or simply that the fuel/air mix is hotter before the spark is applied and so combusts better). Short trips are inefficient as the engine never gets fully up to temperature. You need energy to accelerate, and to compensate for the energy transferred to the environment through friction with the air and with the road. The tyres' rolling resistance changes with tyre pressure, which in turn changes with temperature. (The resistance goes down with higher pressures; the pressure increases with higher temperatures.) You get lower fuel consumption (higher MPG) if you can maintain a constant speed (allowing for hills) rather than braking and accelerating. Lower speeds overall are better as the air resistance increases exponentially with speed. Having the windows open disrupts airflow and increases drag. Acceleration doesn't have to be very gentle. In fact accelerating too gently can be bad for fuel consumption as well as you're using the inefficient low part of the engine's efficiency curve. If you're not accelerating you generally want to shift up to the highest gear the car can maintain speed in - although it's converting energy less efficiently it's using less fuel per second overall. Wet roads require the tyres to act as pumps to push the water away from the contact surface. This requires additional energy. Because there are so many variables, the published consumption figures are based on a standard test, which is described here[^]. Firstly, note that it's carried out at relatively high temperatures, 20 - 30 degrees Celsius. Secondly, it's on a rolling road, so there is no air resistance. Some people have suggested reporting this as an index value (relative to some target figure, say 40mpg) rather than as an actual MPG value. The Prius particularly gets criticised for not being able to achieve the test's 65.7mpg, where other cars which don't have a consumption readou
Mike Dimmick wrote:
hot engines are more efficient, though I'm not sure exactly why this is
I've noticed that. It is a relatively flat 6 miles from my home to the edge of Glasgow along the M8. My "miles remaining" counter uses up 11 miles getting out of Glasgow in free flowing traffic (basically at the start of the journey) and only 5 coming into Glasgow (after my engine has already been running for about 40 minutes)
Mike Dimmick wrote:
You get lower fuel consumption (higher MPG) if you can maintain a constant speed (allowing for hills) rather than braking and accelerating.
I've been known to get from Glasgow to Edinburgh and never break on the Motorway itself. I am quite good at anticipating the conditions ahead.
Mike Dimmick wrote:
I think it's most likely that your high MPG trips coincided with long journeys on medium-speed roads with few stops, on warm, dry days.
I don't drive a lot and my trips are nearly always Glasgow to Edinburgh which is 45 miles each way. I don't recall the weather, but I'll take note of it and see if it changes. I do know that my worst motorway fuel efficiency was a drive from Glasgow to the Lake District in stormy conditions and I was bearly making 35MPG. I was fighting against wind and rain.
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