Coding for fruit
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I don't know about how profitable it is, but I have found their attitude towards devs to be one of indifference. I have been on the carbon and xCode mailing list for about 5 years now, and I have not been that impressed. It can be frustrating to find things out, the tools have been really slow to come to any fruition (the current xCode is much better than before, but it's still got some big issues). Documentation, particularly for Carbon was/is a real PITA to find. A interesting thing has developed with the release of the iPhone SDK and the updated version of xCode (it moved from 3.0 to 3.1). Apple releases it to people for development. But, you have to "sign" a click through NDA to get it. Then they point people at mailing lists, but when newbies rightfully ask questions they are told they won't get answers because the product in question is NDA'd. OK that's fair enough, except there's *no where* else to go! All you can do is send an email as feedback! There's no closed list for NDA devs to ask question or discuss at all. This strikes me as absurd, but it seems generally in keeping with some of the other things I've seen on the platform.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
It seems like the only developers that Apple is really interested in are Apple employees.
That is exactly what I have thought for some time as well. I don't know how fair that is, but from what I've seen ,and heard we're definitely not alone in these sentiments. All this said, I do want to mention that Cocoa is a *really* cool API to use and Objective C is extremely cool. I think it's a crying shame that it's not usable as a general purpose framework on other platforms (and yes I'm aware of GNUStep, but that's not really an option unless you're prepared to accept developing with GCC and a broken Win32 port).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
and yes I'm aware of GNUStep, but that's not really an option unless you're prepared to accept developing with GCC
The xcode tools are built on the GCC toolchain, are they not? I remember reading that Apple is the main open source developers on the Obj-C part of GCC.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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It's nice to hear from someone who's been to the front. This reinforces my gut feeling that unlike MS, Apple isn't really interested in building an army of supporting developers for their products. We can joke about Ballmer and "Developers, developers, developers," but it's support from guys like us that made the mammoth success of Microsoft possible, and they were smart enough to court us.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Absolutely. I don't like Microsoft as a company per se, or it's ethics, but they have done a really good job (compared to most other software companies) about supporting developers. However keep in mind that I don't program on OS X for a living, so my opinions may be skewed a bit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Absolutely. I don't like Microsoft as a company per se, or it's ethics, but they have done a really good job (compared to most other software companies) about supporting developers. However keep in mind that I don't program on OS X for a living, so my opinions may be skewed a bit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
However keep in mind that I don't program on OS X for a living
Apparently, neither does most anyone else.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
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Jim Crafton wrote:
and yes I'm aware of GNUStep, but that's not really an option unless you're prepared to accept developing with GCC
The xcode tools are built on the GCC toolchain, are they not? I remember reading that Apple is the main open source developers on the Obj-C part of GCC.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Right, but if you move to another platform, if you want to use ObjC you HAVE to use GCC. There are no other compilers (that I know of) that support it. Which is really annoying, as GCC on windows is not fun. What would be great is if there were a ObjC front end that could somehow be plugged into the MS compiler toolchain. Then you'd have the best of both worlds.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
However keep in mind that I don't program on OS X for a living
Apparently, neither does most anyone else.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
:) Cute, but not *entirely* fair :) There's a list of Downloads of OS X software ( http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/[^] ) that has a fair number of apps. A number of these are freeware/shareware, but I was surprised to see a number of app are definitely full time, commercial apps, besides the heavy hitters like Avid/Adobe/Microsoft. So there are some who manage to do so :) Don't know how much hair they have left...
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Personally speaking I'm getting a Mac not to do any development (though I am looking forward to again having vi) but because 1. Macs look good. I'm stunned that PC manufactures are sticking with ugly boxes. 2. Macs run Windows. To me a Mac is just another PC. 3. Macs accept USB devices. I'll use whatever keyboard/mouse I want. My Mac will look like a Mac and smell like a Mac but it's going to be running Visual Studio.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
smell like a Mac
Drool! ;P OK, that counts for all new electronics, but I somehow imagine a Mac smelling better; more concentrated.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
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what the?! "Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD, sometimes called Berkeley Unix) is the Unix operating system derivative developed and distributed by the Computer Systems Research Group of the University of California, Berkeley, from 1977 to 1995." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD[^]
You have to be specific. Saying "UNIX" doesn't mean a whole lot. SunOS is based on UNIX, as is SCO, AIX, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Ultrix, IRIX, et al. Apple's version is blend of the BSD plus a Mach micro kernel plus their own C++ driver layer.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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If I'm not mistaken, mac os x is actually based on the mach kernel - a micro kernel. They implement a unix subsystem - a mix between net/freebsd if I'm not mistaken. It's much like the posix or win32 subsystem in windows.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
we're so hopelessly pedantic :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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:) Cute, but not *entirely* fair :) There's a list of Downloads of OS X software ( http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/[^] ) that has a fair number of apps. A number of these are freeware/shareware, but I was surprised to see a number of app are definitely full time, commercial apps, besides the heavy hitters like Avid/Adobe/Microsoft. So there are some who manage to do so :) Don't know how much hair they have left...
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
:laugh:
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
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Personally speaking I'm getting a Mac not to do any development (though I am looking forward to again having vi) but because 1. Macs look good. I'm stunned that PC manufactures are sticking with ugly boxes. 2. Macs run Windows. To me a Mac is just another PC. 3. Macs accept USB devices. I'll use whatever keyboard/mouse I want. My Mac will look like a Mac and smell like a Mac but it's going to be running Visual Studio.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
I am looking forward to again having vi
That was a typo right? Are you mad man!???
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Chris Maunder wrote:
smell like a Mac
Drool! ;P OK, that counts for all new electronics, but I somehow imagine a Mac smelling better; more concentrated.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
Actually they smell lighter and breezier. And slightly of turtleneck sweaters.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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You have to be specific. Saying "UNIX" doesn't mean a whole lot. SunOS is based on UNIX, as is SCO, AIX, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Ultrix, IRIX, et al. Apple's version is blend of the BSD plus a Mach micro kernel plus their own C++ driver layer.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Tell the editors of the Wikipedia article that!!! :-)
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Actually they smell lighter and breezier. And slightly of turtleneck sweaters.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
So where do I get a man's computer, that smells of single malt and cigars?
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
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Actually they smell lighter and breezier. And slightly of turtleneck sweaters.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Personally speaking I'm getting a Mac not to do any development (though I am looking forward to again having vi) but because 1. Macs look good. I'm stunned that PC manufactures are sticking with ugly boxes. 2. Macs run Windows. To me a Mac is just another PC. 3. Macs accept USB devices. I'll use whatever keyboard/mouse I want. My Mac will look like a Mac and smell like a Mac but it's going to be running Visual Studio.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
I'm stunned that PC manufactures are sticking with ugly boxes.
The only ugly boxes I've seen is that alienware crap, and the wannabes out there trying to be like alienware crap.
Chris Maunder wrote:
Macs run Windows. To me a Mac is just another PC.
But buying a Mac just to run Windows is pointless. At that point, you're spending a lot more money than you have to.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I couldn't possibly be more ignorant of Apple technologies. Recently, a friend came over with her new Mac laptop, and I couldn't even find the bloody "backspace delete" key. Let alone the right mouse button. I say this as a preface to forestall any excessive laughing at what might be inane assumptions on my part since I've done zero research. I keep seeing the most unlikely people showing up with Macs. Hardcore, longstanding Windows developers and business people who have lived for decades in a Microsoft dominated office. And yet, with the runaway hit of the iPod and then the massively hyped iPhone, people are also starting to realize something. "Say, don't these Apple guys also make computers?" Macs are flying off the shelves these days, and not just to the fluffy bunny, tree hugging crowd (sorry, Paul :)). I spent decades coding for MS environments for the same reason that bank robbers rob banks - because that's where the money is. For every 1 Apple development job advertised (and I'm not talking web browser stuff), there were 1,000,000 MS jobs. Now, with this Apple renaissance and all the neat new gadgets, part of me is thinking, "Hey, a market that hasn't been flooded with developers. Maybe I should write a..." However, while I'm sure there's a standard Mac API equivalent to the Windows API for developers, Apple's attitude towards developers makes me nervous. iPods, iPhones, i.e. the stuff that put them back on the map, are locked down gadgets where only the black hats dare venture since Apple will likely release a new version that turns your modified iPhone into an iBrick. In short, Apple has always been about proprietary hardware (among the many reasons that they had their head handed to them by Microsoft in the business market). Microsoft encouraged the masses to come and code for their platform. All these Apple gizmos look cool and of course Jobs hypes them as bleeding edge, but I just don't see the porch light on beckoning me to code something cool and profitable for their hardware, no matter how tempting it might be. It seems like the only developers that Apple is really interested in are Apple employees. So, let's hear from the fluffy bunny crowd. If you're banned from a web browser, how profitable (or even possible) is it to write cool new apps for Apple's cool new gizmos?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and
I dropped PCs back in '02/'03 -- after having worked for MS itself! I have always been a 'NIX fan, OS X is a flavour of the (bought) Next OS -- which is, I believe, BSD derived itself; it is all Open Source and seems to run all my interests many-times better than a PC. Additionally, as a programmer, I now have the worlds best IDE / editor (TextMate -- http://macromates.com/) OS X is not making me rich, but, more importantly, is making my happier! I actually do not much care for the other commercial aspects of Apple -- and I taught myself programming, back in 1981, on a Apple ][. David Green (living in Chile)
Interested in answers.
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Actually they smell lighter and breezier. And slightly of turtleneck sweaters.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
MAN POINTS WARNING A man doesn't buy a Mac because it's "lighter and breezier". He buys one because of practical reasons, like... ummmm... well, there is no manly reason to buy a Mac. It's nothing more than a glorified iPod.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I dropped PCs back in '02/'03 -- after having worked for MS itself! I have always been a 'NIX fan, OS X is a flavour of the (bought) Next OS -- which is, I believe, BSD derived itself; it is all Open Source and seems to run all my interests many-times better than a PC. Additionally, as a programmer, I now have the worlds best IDE / editor (TextMate -- http://macromates.com/) OS X is not making me rich, but, more importantly, is making my happier! I actually do not much care for the other commercial aspects of Apple -- and I taught myself programming, back in 1981, on a Apple ][. David Green (living in Chile)
Interested in answers.
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So where do I get a man's computer, that smells of single malt and cigars?
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
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Meh! 200bps. When I was in the SA air force, I managed HF comms with Antarctica, with speeds of 50bps rated, effectively sometimes <1 bps. On Teletype machines. Fun times actually, those midnight skeds with the boys down South. Who else has had 'online' chats on Teletype at those speeds?
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely