jobs.codeproject.com [modified]
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"Nothing in this world is free. It takes either time, money or a combination of both. Chris et all have put in both a built an outstanding community for us developers here on the web that I don't think anyone has ever gotten close to in terms of breath, depth, usability, and utility. So, while you could make an argument that this site is about and driven by the community, this community simply wouldn't exist without the site. In my opinion codeproject is unique." That was not necessary :). "Again, so what? Why does it even matter about the author's intent if the article is excellent and has helped or educated someone?" Well, it does matter, whether you know that someone educates others (as you say) just for fun, or whether he does it for some 'profits'. -- Again, my that argument, is ad-hoc, and not something one should raise so much discussions about. I will remove it. Since, as I elaborated later on, it is being done already, that some people use their articles as references in their CV's and that is totally OK. :).
bigdenny200 wrote:
Well, it does matter
Why? Does it in any way reduce the quality or usefulness of the article? If you can't at least provide your reasoning why even bring up the conversation?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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"If CP provides a free service, why is it wrong for them to also provide paid services, so long as they don't impinge on or change the offering to people who are using the site for free ? It's actually great for us - I have won tons of work through my CP articles, imagine how much more so I can point to my CP articles as part of my proof of experience, when the job is listed on CP ?" True, but as I said, CP should try to keep the job site relatively limited in terms of available vacancies. If this web-site becomes very massive, it will make CP look more like an employment agency; again, of course free job site is OK, but the ethical questions raises, when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
modified on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 2:49 PM
bigdenny200 wrote:
True, but as I said, CP should try to keep the job site relatively limited in terms of available vacancies.
Why - so it's of less benefit to us ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
If this web-site becomes very massive, it will make CP look more like an employment agency;
It's a seperate site. Does the growth of the java site make CP look less focused on Windows ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
but the ethical questions raises, when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
I am astounded that anyone would think so. Did you think this site was run on fairy dust ? CP is free, some revenue stream is needed to make that possible.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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"Nothing in this world is free. It takes either time, money or a combination of both. Chris et all have put in both a built an outstanding community for us developers here on the web that I don't think anyone has ever gotten close to in terms of breath, depth, usability, and utility. So, while you could make an argument that this site is about and driven by the community, this community simply wouldn't exist without the site. In my opinion codeproject is unique." That was not necessary :). "Again, so what? Why does it even matter about the author's intent if the article is excellent and has helped or educated someone?" Well, it does matter, whether you know that someone educates others (as you say) just for fun, or whether he does it for some 'profits'. -- Again, my that argument, is ad-hoc, and not something one should raise so much discussions about. I will remove it. Since, as I elaborated later on, it is being done already, that some people use their articles as references in their CV's and that is totally OK. :).
bigdenny200 wrote:
I will remove it
Please don't, that is SO annoying.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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bigdenny200 wrote:
True, but as I said, CP should try to keep the job site relatively limited in terms of available vacancies.
Why - so it's of less benefit to us ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
If this web-site becomes very massive, it will make CP look more like an employment agency;
It's a seperate site. Does the growth of the java site make CP look less focused on Windows ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
but the ethical questions raises, when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
I am astounded that anyone would think so. Did you think this site was run on fairy dust ? CP is free, some revenue stream is needed to make that possible.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
"Why - so it's of less benefit to us ?" No. "It's a seperate site. Does the growth of the java site make CP look less focused on Windows ?" Check my first post. I did not know that was a seperate web-site. That changes picture a bit. "some revenue stream is needed to make that possible." Well, the way it has been started out, it does not seem that its idea is to bring "some" profits; and most importantly, it has a strong perspective to become one of the most massive job sites around, but then again comes the same ethical question -- which becomes "somewhat" justified if the web-site is moved to a seperate web-site.
modified on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 3:16 PM
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bigdenny200 wrote:
Well, it does matter
Why? Does it in any way reduce the quality or usefulness of the article? If you can't at least provide your reasoning why even bring up the conversation?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
No, it effects the "image" one has about the author of the article. i.e. what is the idea about a hero who gets 1000 dollars for saving someone by risking his life, and the person who does the same just for free -- according to the contents, a very primitive example :), but it fits in the context.
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No, I mean that he thought I had got it backwards, but that was not the case. That's what I meant. :).
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Ok Michael, let's not compete in terms of the number of our contributions, since that also does not mean that you are a bigger fan of CP than I am :).
Okay - you both lose beside Christian. The man's a posting monster.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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bigdenny200 wrote:
True, but as I said, CP should try to keep the job site relatively limited in terms of available vacancies.
Why - so it's of less benefit to us ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
If this web-site becomes very massive, it will make CP look more like an employment agency;
It's a seperate site. Does the growth of the java site make CP look less focused on Windows ?
bigdenny200 wrote:
but the ethical questions raises, when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
I am astounded that anyone would think so. Did you think this site was run on fairy dust ? CP is free, some revenue stream is needed to make that possible.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
"Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you" Btw. an advice to change it to smth. like (or smth different and more specific): "Please read this if you did not find my answer helpful enough." Else, I thought it was a sarcastic signature, highlighting the fact that someone was not 'smart' enough to understand your post. Never read your article, so sorry if its content makes my remark "unapplicable".
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If Chris, et.al. were creating the jobs board specifically for profit, I might consider it to be borderline conflict-of-interest. However, (and this is purely a guess and my opinion) I expect most (if not all) of the income derived from an employer purchasing a job listing will go towards helping run the site (there are expenses involved in a site like this, and I'm sure they are considerable) and paying the CP employees who help run the site. This is really no different than the current method of sponsorship and/or sponsored advertising.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
"If Chris, et.al. were creating the jobs board specifically for profit, I might consider it to be borderline conflict-of-interest". I think your reply was the most adequate, and actually I am still not convinvced that this is done not solely for the profit; I am sure, you are'nt either :).
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
Hi there. When I read about the jobs board, I took an entirely different view. I thought "wow, that's neat... if I'm ever in the position to be looking, what a good resource I can use." It doesn't bother me at all if CP can help good developers get good jobs. Nor does it bother me if authors would post articles for no other reason than to make themselves more marketable. In fact, those are often the best articles, as the author may take extra time to write an article of *quality*, knowing that it may someday form an addendum to a resume. Think about the CP authors you have read and really like, consistently. You can probably think of some names right off the bat. Suppose you had a developer job opening and you were responsible for the search. Wouldn't you love the possibility of recruiting some of those names you just thought of? In fact, as I think of it more, one of the best things CP can give back to authors who contribute is the facilitation of finding employment when the need is there for the developer.
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I don't think you are a bigger fan of CP than I am. But, I mean that maintaining a (relatively expensive) massive job site, within a free software developer's community, could harm the community itself (in the long term).
How? Please give a concrete example of how the job board could hurt this community.
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No, it effects the "image" one has about the author of the article. i.e. what is the idea about a hero who gets 1000 dollars for saving someone by risking his life, and the person who does the same just for free -- according to the contents, a very primitive example :), but it fits in the context.
Why are you so concerned with image? If your life is saved, do you really care about the motivations? Aren't you glad to be alive? Show some appreciation man.
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How? Please give a concrete example of how the job board could hurt this community.
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How? Please give a concrete example of how the job board could hurt this community.
CP is a free web-site hosting several thousands of articles, for "helping" programming community -- that is its sole purpose. By embedding a "paid massive" job web-site inside it, its purpose is being changed. Changing the purpose of CP might affect the enthusiasm of people who make controbutions to it. My only question was to raise discussions on how ethical it is to do what CP did. I think most of the CPians took it personally.
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Why are you so concerned with image? If your life is saved, do you really care about the motivations? Aren't you glad to be alive? Show some appreciation man.
Well, come on. let's dont get too so many details. I think you got my point, else I can't explain it more that that :).
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CP is a free web-site hosting several thousands of articles, for "helping" programming community -- that is its sole purpose. By embedding a "paid massive" job web-site inside it, its purpose is being changed. Changing the purpose of CP might affect the enthusiasm of people who make controbutions to it. My only question was to raise discussions on how ethical it is to do what CP did. I think most of the CPians took it personally.
Nope - your question didn't bother me one way or the other. Personally, I wish Chris and the team all the best with this venture, and I hope it succeeds for them. Ultimately, they only get paid if The Code Project makes money, and they can't really rely on the advertising for that so it's good to see that they have looked at diversification. I would be worried if it took up all of Chris' attentions, but I trust that guy - he's proved his intentions in the past; plus he seems to be looking to do what's right for his staff.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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A lot of those accounts belong to little Joshua and Kyle because they get banned every so often. :) Then there are the people who create an account when they find out they have to register for downloading ZIP files, forgetting they did the same thing yesterday.... All in all, I think the number of active users (few posts a month, an article a year) is in the low thousands.
Cheers, Vikram.
The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray.
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Well, one could filter out (bad) received job vacancies, and at least charge reasonably less amount, for advertisements. Actually, came to think now, maybe by charging this amount, CP tries to maintain high quality of job seekers? -- but what does that change, one could still do the filtering manually. At the very least, the idea should be to make the job web-site, relatively limited in terms of allowed job applications, and not make it too massive, else, it may over shade CP after a while :).
bigdenny200 wrote:
but what does that change, one could still do the filtering manually.
...which costs time (== money) and effort from someone here to filter them. I don't get it. Surely any employer will spend far, far more than $249 during the hiring process and in wages once they finally find a candidate... heck, $249 won't even get you a crappy little ad for 30 days in the "Help Wanted" section of most local newspapers. Where are you coming from on this? :confused:
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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"If CP provides a free service, why is it wrong for them to also provide paid services, so long as they don't impinge on or change the offering to people who are using the site for free ? It's actually great for us - I have won tons of work through my CP articles, imagine how much more so I can point to my CP articles as part of my proof of experience, when the job is listed on CP ?" True, but as I said, CP should try to keep the job site relatively limited in terms of available vacancies. If this web-site becomes very massive, it will make CP look more like an employment agency; again, of course free job site is OK, but the ethical questions raises, when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
modified on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 2:49 PM
bigdenny200 wrote:
when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
Eh? What? Not sure where you got the $300 figure, but the page i saw said $249 USD. That's peanuts. $300 is still peanuts. I just checked the price of running a short little entry in my local paper, and 30 days would cost me over $700, with no fat rich text description, no logo / attachment, no map, and no targeted audience. :suss:
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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bigdenny200 wrote:
when one sees 300$ as a charge for a single job vanancy advertisement within a free software developer community's web-site.
Eh? What? Not sure where you got the $300 figure, but the page i saw said $249 USD. That's peanuts. $300 is still peanuts. I just checked the price of running a short little entry in my local paper, and 30 days would cost me over $700, with no fat rich text description, no logo / attachment, no map, and no targeted audience. :suss:
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Well, that makes CP's intention to create a job-web site even more massive. According to my insights, I had considered 250 relatively a high charge for a job vacancy. Maybe this is not an answer to you, just I am tired from answering so many posts :) But, just imagine Linus, speculating with the freeware developers of Linux, by creating job-sites (in the worst case, embedded into linux web-sites) targeted to such audience using his 'channels', and starting to make money out of the employers. Again we would get back to the same ethical problem. CP had collected this community, from different purposes, and suddently, it starts earning "lots" of money "using" them :). In the end you can say, it is a win-win situation (omitting the ethical side, which clearly exists). But, still this can affect CP in a bad way, in the long term [see my reply to Chris Kaiser -- made after the post of "led mike"].