jobs.codeproject.com [modified]
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Wow. Just a single '1' score, after so many sensitive discussions :). Funny is that, I was not even sarcastic in my reply, I really found Shog's reply confusing, so just wanted to make a joke on that particular message :).
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"Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you" Btw. an advice to change it to smth. like (or smth different and more specific): "Please read this if you did not find my answer helpful enough." Else, I thought it was a sarcastic signature, highlighting the fact that someone was not 'smart' enough to understand your post. Never read your article, so sorry if its content makes my remark "unapplicable".
bigdenny200 wrote:
Never read your article, so sorry if its content makes my remark "unapplicable".
It's an article on how to use google - thanks for the tip, I agree.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
1. Programming is fun. 2. It is not unethical to earn your living with what is your passion. You have to explain why it should be unethical. Most people here earn their money as developers, most people here do not religously believe in "everything on the internet should be free".
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
No, it effects the "image" one has about the author of the article. i.e. what is the idea about a hero who gets 1000 dollars for saving someone by risking his life, and the person who does the same just for free -- according to the contents, a very primitive example :), but it fits in the context.
Woah... that is dangerously close to saying that a fireman, who incidentally saves people from burning wreckage on a weekly basis, shouldn't get paid for doing his job and that you can't consider him a hero for doing it as he did it while paid to do it and thus that fact damages his image. In my opinion, if someone helps others out and gets rewarded for it in some way, good on the universe for actually doing that. Most of the time it is the people who don't help anyone at all who get rewarded. I dare you to try to get articles out of academia for free. Once they go into a journal, you have to spend 32 bucks to get a copy of it.
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
bigdenny200 wrote:
I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site.
Okay I'm correcting you. If you look at the top of the window at your browser address bar you will probably notice that even if you went to codeproject.com, you are actually now at www.codeproject.com. Thus, jobs.codeproject.com is merely at the same level and should remove all of your concerns. I realize it might be a bit confusing, but I'm happy to help out. :)
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I think the replies to your question by other regulars sum it up pretty well, but for the record I thought I'd offer my 2c. Firstly, our #1 priority is to the site and the development community. We're not going to do anything that ruins what we have. I feel like I've built this whole thing up with my bare hands so I'm not going to do anything that threatens what we have. Secondly, we need developers to help build more stuff for you guys but finding good devs is really hard, which is frustrating because so many of the very people we are trying to attract already come to our site. Almost every company I've spoken to has the same issue and so we thought the best thing to do is work out a way to hook up our 5 million members with all those companies looking for good talent in a way that is simple for our readers and simple for a company. Having a Job Board is a natural extension to what we have here at The Code Project: Resources to help you in your programming career. The thing is: we used to have a Job Board. It was crap and wasn't anywhere near the help we wanted it to be so we've bit the bullet and built something that will actually be useful. The only way it will work, though, is if we can have it pay for itself so we've adopted the standard model of having the Employer pay (and they are paying up to half what other sites charge) and the potential employees (you guys!) use it for free. We're constantly looking for new and better ways to help the development community. Some of those new ways might have a fee attached (like the job board) and others won't. As has been pointed out, running a site like The Code Project and hiring the best developers to work on it is an expensive proposition. With regards to the size of the board it is actually more useful the bigger it is. It won't detract from the rest of the site because it's in its own area, and the more jobs we can have posted the more chance of there being something that a developer on the site would be interested in.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I'm pretty sure that everyone who gets a job they like from that site is going to be quite pleased with the work you put into it. I'm just going to sit back and cheer you on from my little analyst cubicle where my once useful programming skills are slowly deteriorating into a mush of fortran induced agony. :)
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Well, I think by charging around 300$ for one job listing, on the community of 5 million programmers, goes far beyond earning the costs of running several CP severs. Correct me if I am wrong again.
What an unbelievably naive perspective you have. Do you think the cost of running something like CP is "just the cost of running several CP servers?" Ok, so we've got the hosting costs. Then the bandwidth costs - 5 million users generate a lot of accesses per day, 24x7 - that alone would be substantial - this is a globally used site. Then there is the development and maintenance costs - check the "about" page - there are 17 staff listed. Let's be really conservative and assume they are earning say, $40k pa, that costs $680,000 for salaries alone - the real figure is probably in excess of $1m. Yes CP does have advertising to help pay the way, but how many click-throughs or impressions would it need to generate $680,000 dollars? And you're complaining about $300 for adverts that you don't even have to pay for??? That could conceivably benefit you if you get a job as a result???? Some people just have no clue whatsoever.:mad:
'Howard
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Depends on the ethics of the job board.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayI so completely fail to understand where the beef is here. :wtf: This is not a charity, it's a business. Yes people contribute their code here (I have) for free, for the greater benefit, but the site is free to me or you. Running a site this size costs a LOT money and ONLY advertising supports this -whether for jobs or components or whatever. With 5 million tech users they would be mad not to add jobs. It's not like you have floating flash popups that you have to close on every page like many sites I can think of. I've always found that CP's approach to ads is a good one - enough to ensure they get revenue, not so much that it's annoying or intrusive. One reason why I tick the box to allow them to send me CodeProject offers - it supports the site. If you don't like the job board, don't go there.
'Howard
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What an unbelievably naive perspective you have. Do you think the cost of running something like CP is "just the cost of running several CP servers?" Ok, so we've got the hosting costs. Then the bandwidth costs - 5 million users generate a lot of accesses per day, 24x7 - that alone would be substantial - this is a globally used site. Then there is the development and maintenance costs - check the "about" page - there are 17 staff listed. Let's be really conservative and assume they are earning say, $40k pa, that costs $680,000 for salaries alone - the real figure is probably in excess of $1m. Yes CP does have advertising to help pay the way, but how many click-throughs or impressions would it need to generate $680,000 dollars? And you're complaining about $300 for adverts that you don't even have to pay for??? That could conceivably benefit you if you get a job as a result???? Some people just have no clue whatsoever.:mad:
'Howard
Ditto that was my thought on this point sigh...
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
how about we just leave it at ...it is ethically correct I think it is a perfectly good idea to have a job section to the website, this is a site for developer resources and thats just another resource, I SERIOUSLY doubt that the job section could ever overshadow the comunity, even if SOMEHOW it does, the job section cant function properly without the community As to CP reaping the finanicial benefits. 300 bucks is a longs ways off, agencies will often take a percentage of your first year's pay. As to the image of CP, having the $300 charge could even improve that image depending on who looks at it, having a price means that its only for serious job notices, I've seen some free ad sites with job sections and they have the most bogus adds somtimes anyway if it came down to a vote my vote would go towards having the job section, wven tho being from SA I dont have much use for it. P.S Most likly Mr bigdenny is a recruiter who cant afford the 300 bucks and this is his petition to get the price to drop :suss: ;P
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
I understand your concerns but a job board is another form of advertising and this is what enables CP to keep paying the hosting and development bills. Without it you don't get the free articles and forums. If you have concerns with the job board then you must also have concerns with the advertising system on CP. Technically you can run job ads through the existing advertising system. The other side is that most of us are employed and jobs are an integral part of our careers. Creating a jobs board on CP is fleshing out another area of development, just like adding Java or another forum does. Skills, resumes, interview techniques and choosing the right job are all part of what we do everyday and to be able to do it on CP instead of Monster or another job site is welcome. One thing I can say is that you would be hard pressed to find a fairer or more ethical man than Chris. As he mentions he built CP with his own hands and he isn't about to sell it out for a few measly job dollars. Your concerns are important and need to be brought up but I am standing-up and saying you don't have to worry on CP.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Ditto that was my thought on this point sigh...
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bigdenny200 wrote:
goes far beyond earning the costs of running several CP severs.
I'm thinking you are SERIOUSLY underestimating the costs involved in creating, operating and maintaining this site.
Ditto.
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"If Chris, et.al. were creating the jobs board specifically for profit, I might consider it to be borderline conflict-of-interest". I think your reply was the most adequate, and actually I am still not convinvced that this is done not solely for the profit; I am sure, you are'nt either :).
Honestly, you keep repeating "for profit" and I keep thinking "for profit with reference to WHAT?" Assuming that CP is a completely break-even proposition at this moment in time, what is its budget for R&D? and does the generation of income in excess of what it takes to break even for the purpose of R&D truly rate the name "for profit" under these circumstances? It is not obvious what you mean when you write "for profit." If you could state clearly and concretely what you mean, I think it would end this discussion rather quickly.
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I understand your concerns but a job board is another form of advertising and this is what enables CP to keep paying the hosting and development bills. Without it you don't get the free articles and forums. If you have concerns with the job board then you must also have concerns with the advertising system on CP. Technically you can run job ads through the existing advertising system. The other side is that most of us are employed and jobs are an integral part of our careers. Creating a jobs board on CP is fleshing out another area of development, just like adding Java or another forum does. Skills, resumes, interview techniques and choosing the right job are all part of what we do everyday and to be able to do it on CP instead of Monster or another job site is welcome. One thing I can say is that you would be hard pressed to find a fairer or more ethical man than Chris. As he mentions he built CP with his own hands and he isn't about to sell it out for a few measly job dollars. Your concerns are important and need to be brought up but I am standing-up and saying you don't have to worry on CP.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul Watson wrote:
As he mentions he built CP with his own hands and he isn't about to sell it out for a few measly job dollars.
Yeah, but he seems to be a pretty bright guy, so if someone came along with a HUGE BUTTWAD of job dollars... :omg:
Someone's gotta be the last to know, but why is it always me?
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Paul Watson wrote:
As he mentions he built CP with his own hands and he isn't about to sell it out for a few measly job dollars.
Yeah, but he seems to be a pretty bright guy, so if someone came along with a HUGE BUTTWAD of job dollars... :omg:
Someone's gotta be the last to know, but why is it always me?
goodideadave wrote:
so if someone came along with a HUGE BUTTWAD of job dollars...
erm...so?
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
I think you have too much free time on your hands. I also think that policemen should spend their time chasing murderers and rapists.