American History X
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I agree - the price of freedom of speech is that everyone gets it, even people are stupid as Willie Brown ( the name which the clown who keeps emailing me uses. I'd laugh if it was his real name. ) True enough Christian, and yet your god will condemn me to an eternity in hell simply because I have a different opinion to him. Obviously he has a low opinion of freedom of thought (not even taking it as far as speech). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
When you are the creator of all, you sort of get to make up the rules as you go along. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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I agree - the price of freedom of speech is that everyone gets it, even people are stupid as Willie Brown ( the name which the clown who keeps emailing me uses. I'd laugh if it was his real name. ) True enough Christian, and yet your god will condemn me to an eternity in hell simply because I have a different opinion to him. Obviously he has a low opinion of freedom of thought (not even taking it as far as speech). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing, but nevertheless, as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Your life here is the freedom of speech and action God has given you, if you choose to use it to accept the gift He offers to give you, then you'll get it. If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about ? Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing, but nevertheless, as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Your life here is the freedom of speech and action God has given you, if you choose to use it to accept the gift He offers to give you, then you'll get it. If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about ? Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
Christian/Tim, The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing,... Yeah, but was just trying to keep it simple. Which ever way you slice it, it's generally considered "not a good thing". ...as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about? Penalty. Punishment. Coercion. If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Christian/Tim, The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing,... Yeah, but was just trying to keep it simple. Which ever way you slice it, it's generally considered "not a good thing". ...as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about? Penalty. Punishment. Coercion. If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? 1. As I said, the whole 'eternal punishment' thing is not as clear in the Bible as a southern baptist preacher might have you think 2. No person deserves the gift God offers us, that is the point. However, don't get me started on priests in so called churches that have nothing to do with the Bible molesting children. That is a different issue and one on which I presume from your post you have no idea what my opinion is. My opinion involves a rusty knife. 3. Mike Burston wrote: If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. LOL. I have no idea what happens to you. I do know that it's your decision though. I don't think it's a room full of flames, I'd lean towards non-existance. But as I said, the Bible is written to instruct the winners, not to tell the people who decide they aren't interested what to expect, I mean, it's not like they'd believe it anyhow, right ? Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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Christian/Tim, The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing,... Yeah, but was just trying to keep it simple. Which ever way you slice it, it's generally considered "not a good thing". ...as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about? Penalty. Punishment. Coercion. If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? It's not just your philosophy that is in disagreement, it's your entire life. Romans 3: 23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God We all sin and fall short in God's eyes so we all must accept his way of doing things if we want eternal life. We mortals rank sins, God does not. A sin is a sin, whether it is child molestation, murder, or theft. There is only one requirement to have eternal life: put the will of God before your own. This means rejecting completely, all sin, and submitting your life to God's will. This doesn't mean you will never sin again, but if your relationship with God is strong enough and your heart is in the right place, you will be forgiven. God's grace alone can save you, you will not be able to make it on your own. Mike Burston wrote: the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams If you can accept that law breakers get punished, why can't you accept that God will punish those that reject him?Jason Henderson
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"Like it or not, I'm right!" -
Mike Burston wrote: Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? 1. As I said, the whole 'eternal punishment' thing is not as clear in the Bible as a southern baptist preacher might have you think 2. No person deserves the gift God offers us, that is the point. However, don't get me started on priests in so called churches that have nothing to do with the Bible molesting children. That is a different issue and one on which I presume from your post you have no idea what my opinion is. My opinion involves a rusty knife. 3. Mike Burston wrote: If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. LOL. I have no idea what happens to you. I do know that it's your decision though. I don't think it's a room full of flames, I'd lean towards non-existance. But as I said, the Bible is written to instruct the winners, not to tell the people who decide they aren't interested what to expect, I mean, it's not like they'd believe it anyhow, right ? Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
That is a different issue and one on which I presume from your post you have no idea what my opinion is. My opinion involves a rusty knife. Glad to hear it - but we were (indirectly?) discussing god's opinion, rather than yours. What precisely does god do with these stray by repentant priests? Hypothetically (and in your opinion), if dear Adolf had've "accepted the gift" moments before he died, would he currently be eating ice-cream in the spa with Eva? Or is he "paying a price" somewhere for his deeds, regardless of his final thoughts? I have no idea what happens to you. I do know that it's your decision though. I don't think it's a room full of flames, I'd lean towards non-existance. I'm well aware you're from the "the bible says it all" camp, but I'd never have picked you to be so soft, fuzzy and "new age" on the heaven/hell thingy. So if you have no real idea of what "hell" might be (other than "not good"), then what do you think "Heaven" is? Can I assume you define "heaven" as "good"? Perhaps "better than hell"? Imagine how annoyed you'll be if you get to heaven and find that the "reward" is just a free weekly rental from VideoHeaven (TM)! ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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That is a different issue and one on which I presume from your post you have no idea what my opinion is. My opinion involves a rusty knife. Glad to hear it - but we were (indirectly?) discussing god's opinion, rather than yours. What precisely does god do with these stray by repentant priests? Hypothetically (and in your opinion), if dear Adolf had've "accepted the gift" moments before he died, would he currently be eating ice-cream in the spa with Eva? Or is he "paying a price" somewhere for his deeds, regardless of his final thoughts? I have no idea what happens to you. I do know that it's your decision though. I don't think it's a room full of flames, I'd lean towards non-existance. I'm well aware you're from the "the bible says it all" camp, but I'd never have picked you to be so soft, fuzzy and "new age" on the heaven/hell thingy. So if you have no real idea of what "hell" might be (other than "not good"), then what do you think "Heaven" is? Can I assume you define "heaven" as "good"? Perhaps "better than hell"? Imagine how annoyed you'll be if you get to heaven and find that the "reward" is just a free weekly rental from VideoHeaven (TM)! ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: Glad to hear it - but we were (indirectly?) discussing god's opinion, rather than yours. What precisely does god do with these stray by repentant priests? 1. The priests in question, by definition, are not Christians in most cases. No church that has people they refer to as priests that I know of preaches Christianity. 2. The Bible says that God can forgive anything of the non-Christian, but once one becomes a Christian there is sin that cannot be forgiven. Certainly the thing God looks for most is our attitude, anyone who is a Christian and does any wrong thing on the basis that they plan to be forgiven is missing the boat. 3. Jesus was happy to hang with prostitutes and other people considered scum, but He had nothing but contempt for religious leaders who neither did what God wanted, or taught others to do what is right. Mike Burston wrote: Hypothetically (and in your opinion), if dear Adolf had've "accepted the gift" moments before he died, would he currently be eating ice-cream in the spa with Eva? Or is he "paying a price" somewhere for his deeds, regardless of his final thoughts? When people die, they sleep, they do not go anywhere until Jesus returns. But the answer is that if he became a Christian, he would have been forgiven. Mike Burston wrote: but I'd never have picked you to be so soft, fuzzy and "new age" on the heaven/hell thingy. I don't think I'm overly fuzzy, I'm not suggesting it's a preferable option. The two words translated as hell are the Greek word for the grave and the name of a place where refuse was discarded in Jerusalem. It is not clear from either of these that there is a place of eternal torment. Mike Burston wrote: then what do you think "Heaven" is? Christians will be changed physically, in fact it says we will be like Him, and will know as we are known ( i.e. we'll know God the way He knows us ). The Bible says that God is going to restore His Kingdom here on Earth, and the rulers in the next age will be the Christians of this age. It also says that God is going to spend all eternity being nice to us. Mike Burston wrote: Can I assume you define "heaven" as "good"? Perhaps "better than hell"? Because the Bible is written for people 'going to heaven' ( for want of a better term ), it has a lot more to say about that than the other option. But I still would not clai
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Mike Burston wrote: Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? It's not just your philosophy that is in disagreement, it's your entire life. Romans 3: 23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God We all sin and fall short in God's eyes so we all must accept his way of doing things if we want eternal life. We mortals rank sins, God does not. A sin is a sin, whether it is child molestation, murder, or theft. There is only one requirement to have eternal life: put the will of God before your own. This means rejecting completely, all sin, and submitting your life to God's will. This doesn't mean you will never sin again, but if your relationship with God is strong enough and your heart is in the right place, you will be forgiven. God's grace alone can save you, you will not be able to make it on your own. Mike Burston wrote: the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams If you can accept that law breakers get punished, why can't you accept that God will punish those that reject him?Jason Henderson
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"Like it or not, I'm right!"Jason, I'm not aware of which particular dialect of christianity you subscribe to, so this may or may not make sense to you... If you can accept that law breakers get punished, why can't you accept that God will punish those that reject him? Because you neatly, and perhaps without thinking about it, just merged two different concepts into one. You overlaid "law breakers" and "free thinkers". The Catholic church says I'm on my way to heaven, no matter what I do. Why? Because I was baptised as an infant. I have been marked as 'belonging to god'. Baptism can't be "removed" - it's written in indelible ink. Now take Mr Graus (trying to avoid saying "Christian", so as not to confuse Christian with christians - er, you know what I mean, right?). He won't be going to (Catholic) heaven (I think - were you ever baptised a Catholic, Christian?). Note that Christian, through his failure to be baptised, is a 'law breaker' and will be punished. Christian doesn't accept the Catholic theology - he's a Catholic "free thinker". Yet he's devout, reads the bible before breakfast every day, lives a (reasonably) good life, and understands GDIPlus quite well (usually a sure sign of satanic influence, but we'll overlook it for now). Following on from you comment then, and according to some 900 million humans, Christian has no right to complain if he spends the rest of eternity in hell - he had his choice, and he rejected the truth. And this seems fair to you? If the Catholics are right, then I'm getting ice-cream and supermodels, and Mr Graus gets Linix maintenance programming for all eternity. Tell you what - play it safe. If you haven't already, then whip down to your local Catholic church and get a bit of water splashed on your head. Might be the best 10 minutes you've ever invested. Now, assuming you *aren't* a Catholic, why don;t you do it right now? ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Mike Burston wrote: Glad to hear it - but we were (indirectly?) discussing god's opinion, rather than yours. What precisely does god do with these stray by repentant priests? 1. The priests in question, by definition, are not Christians in most cases. No church that has people they refer to as priests that I know of preaches Christianity. 2. The Bible says that God can forgive anything of the non-Christian, but once one becomes a Christian there is sin that cannot be forgiven. Certainly the thing God looks for most is our attitude, anyone who is a Christian and does any wrong thing on the basis that they plan to be forgiven is missing the boat. 3. Jesus was happy to hang with prostitutes and other people considered scum, but He had nothing but contempt for religious leaders who neither did what God wanted, or taught others to do what is right. Mike Burston wrote: Hypothetically (and in your opinion), if dear Adolf had've "accepted the gift" moments before he died, would he currently be eating ice-cream in the spa with Eva? Or is he "paying a price" somewhere for his deeds, regardless of his final thoughts? When people die, they sleep, they do not go anywhere until Jesus returns. But the answer is that if he became a Christian, he would have been forgiven. Mike Burston wrote: but I'd never have picked you to be so soft, fuzzy and "new age" on the heaven/hell thingy. I don't think I'm overly fuzzy, I'm not suggesting it's a preferable option. The two words translated as hell are the Greek word for the grave and the name of a place where refuse was discarded in Jerusalem. It is not clear from either of these that there is a place of eternal torment. Mike Burston wrote: then what do you think "Heaven" is? Christians will be changed physically, in fact it says we will be like Him, and will know as we are known ( i.e. we'll know God the way He knows us ). The Bible says that God is going to restore His Kingdom here on Earth, and the rulers in the next age will be the Christians of this age. It also says that God is going to spend all eternity being nice to us. Mike Burston wrote: Can I assume you define "heaven" as "good"? Perhaps "better than hell"? Because the Bible is written for people 'going to heaven' ( for want of a better term ), it has a lot more to say about that than the other option. But I still would not clai
The priests in question, by definition, are not Christians in most cases. No church that has people they refer to as priests that I know of preaches Christianity. That's okay Christian - I understand that you actually disagree with probably 95% of the people who call themselves christians as the what actually constitutes a "christian". I wonder if they realise that though... But the answer is that if he became a Christian, he would have been forgiven. Yep, that's the way most christians answer. Nice system... ...I'm not suggesting it's a preferable option. But you're not actually sure it's all that bad. Perhaps the supermodels in hell are just a little overwieght, and the temperature in the spa is a few degrees too cool? The two words translated as hell are the Greek word for the grave and the name of a place where refuse was discarded in Jerusalem. I think the word you are looking for in the original Greek bible is "hades", which translates essentially as "unseen". Perhaps us sinners just get moved into a different neighbourhood of heaven, where the 'believers' can't see us. It is not clear from either of these that there is a place of eternal torment. True enough - biblical interpretation is a bitch, isn't it! Now, if only god could have said what he meant. But then, documentation is always the 'poor cousin' of any project... It also says that God is going to spend all eternity being nice to us. Perhaps in the same way that the priest wants to be 'nice' to the alter boy? Okay, okay - sorry! But I still would not claim to have a totally clear picture, as in I couldn't tell you exactly what will happen. I'd be cheeky enough to suggest that you (a) can't provide anything much more that a unexposed, murky polaroid and (b) have no possible way of verifying any details whatsoever. But I know enough to know that it's going to be better than Disneyland. Well why didn't you say so - sign me up! Godland Theme park, here we come... ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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The priests in question, by definition, are not Christians in most cases. No church that has people they refer to as priests that I know of preaches Christianity. That's okay Christian - I understand that you actually disagree with probably 95% of the people who call themselves christians as the what actually constitutes a "christian". I wonder if they realise that though... But the answer is that if he became a Christian, he would have been forgiven. Yep, that's the way most christians answer. Nice system... ...I'm not suggesting it's a preferable option. But you're not actually sure it's all that bad. Perhaps the supermodels in hell are just a little overwieght, and the temperature in the spa is a few degrees too cool? The two words translated as hell are the Greek word for the grave and the name of a place where refuse was discarded in Jerusalem. I think the word you are looking for in the original Greek bible is "hades", which translates essentially as "unseen". Perhaps us sinners just get moved into a different neighbourhood of heaven, where the 'believers' can't see us. It is not clear from either of these that there is a place of eternal torment. True enough - biblical interpretation is a bitch, isn't it! Now, if only god could have said what he meant. But then, documentation is always the 'poor cousin' of any project... It also says that God is going to spend all eternity being nice to us. Perhaps in the same way that the priest wants to be 'nice' to the alter boy? Okay, okay - sorry! But I still would not claim to have a totally clear picture, as in I couldn't tell you exactly what will happen. I'd be cheeky enough to suggest that you (a) can't provide anything much more that a unexposed, murky polaroid and (b) have no possible way of verifying any details whatsoever. But I know enough to know that it's going to be better than Disneyland. Well why didn't you say so - sign me up! Godland Theme park, here we come... ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: That's okay Christian - I understand that you actually disagree with probably 95% of the people who call themselves christians as the what actually constitutes a "christian". I wonder if they realise that though... Disagreeing with what the majority believes is right is a pattern that God's people have followed right though the Bible, and it certainly states this would be the case in our age also. Mike Burston wrote: Yep, that's the way most christians answer. Nice system... Like I said, if 'heaven' was for people who deserved it, then no-one would be going. Mike Burston wrote: But you're not actually sure it's all that bad. That is not what I said. I said I didn't believe it was necesarily eternal torment, it may well be ceasing to exist. Mike Burston wrote: "hades", Yes, and it is used to refer to what it is - the grave. Mike Burston wrote: True enough - biblical interpretation is a bitch, isn't it! Not in the things that matter, no. Mike Burston wrote: can't provide anything much more that a unexposed, murky polaroid The Bible phrases it in a very similar manner - we see through a glass darkly. Mike Burston wrote: have no possible way of verifying any details whatsoever Wrong. The detail that is easy to verify is that God exists and does good things in the lives of people who follow Him, starting with rigidly defined and verifiable proof to the individual. Beyond that, I don't need any more details than I have. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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Mike Burston wrote: That's okay Christian - I understand that you actually disagree with probably 95% of the people who call themselves christians as the what actually constitutes a "christian". I wonder if they realise that though... Disagreeing with what the majority believes is right is a pattern that God's people have followed right though the Bible, and it certainly states this would be the case in our age also. Mike Burston wrote: Yep, that's the way most christians answer. Nice system... Like I said, if 'heaven' was for people who deserved it, then no-one would be going. Mike Burston wrote: But you're not actually sure it's all that bad. That is not what I said. I said I didn't believe it was necesarily eternal torment, it may well be ceasing to exist. Mike Burston wrote: "hades", Yes, and it is used to refer to what it is - the grave. Mike Burston wrote: True enough - biblical interpretation is a bitch, isn't it! Not in the things that matter, no. Mike Burston wrote: can't provide anything much more that a unexposed, murky polaroid The Bible phrases it in a very similar manner - we see through a glass darkly. Mike Burston wrote: have no possible way of verifying any details whatsoever Wrong. The detail that is easy to verify is that God exists and does good things in the lives of people who follow Him, starting with rigidly defined and verifiable proof to the individual. Beyond that, I don't need any more details than I have. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
Disagreeing with what the majority believes is right is a pattern that God's people have followed right though the Bible, and it certainly states this would be the case in our age also. The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. His popint is that the growth of christianity over 2000 years clearly shows it is correct, and he quotes biblical scripture to show that this enormous numerical superiority is all the prrof one could need to see that the bible is accurate. Now you're telling me that the bible predicts that christians must be the minority in order for the bible to be true. What were we saying about bible interpretation... Like I said, if 'heaven' was for people who deserved it, then no-one would be going. I think I know what you mean, but perhaps this is worded poorly? Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? I said I didn't believe it was necesarily eternal torment, it may well be ceasing to exist. Yes, I did catch that. Ceasing to exist. Hmmm... an unsual concept for a christian, but there are so many variations nowadays that I suppose you can add this into the list of possibilities. Can you explain how we can start eliminating possible descriptions of hell? Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Not in the things that matter, no. Such as global floods? Oops..let that go, we've covered that more than once before! How about baptism? Any room to move there? Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Is salvation via works, faith, or both? Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"? If the bible doesn't need interpretation for "the things that matter", then how do we determine what the list of "things that matter" is? Which scripture, without needing interpretation, explains "things that matter"? The detail that is easy to verify is that God exists and does good things in the lives of people who follow Him, starting with rigidly defined and verifiable proof to the individual. You got me there. Can't win an argument about 'personal miracles'. O
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The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing, but nevertheless, as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Your life here is the freedom of speech and action God has given you, if you choose to use it to accept the gift He offers to give you, then you'll get it. If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about ? Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
They very idea of creating intelligent beings to worship ones-self , i find to be undevine. I don't care how much smarter u may be. Ofcourse am not a believer, but i am agianst hate though(i can't choose not to be,am black:):)).
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Jason, I'm not aware of which particular dialect of christianity you subscribe to, so this may or may not make sense to you... If you can accept that law breakers get punished, why can't you accept that God will punish those that reject him? Because you neatly, and perhaps without thinking about it, just merged two different concepts into one. You overlaid "law breakers" and "free thinkers". The Catholic church says I'm on my way to heaven, no matter what I do. Why? Because I was baptised as an infant. I have been marked as 'belonging to god'. Baptism can't be "removed" - it's written in indelible ink. Now take Mr Graus (trying to avoid saying "Christian", so as not to confuse Christian with christians - er, you know what I mean, right?). He won't be going to (Catholic) heaven (I think - were you ever baptised a Catholic, Christian?). Note that Christian, through his failure to be baptised, is a 'law breaker' and will be punished. Christian doesn't accept the Catholic theology - he's a Catholic "free thinker". Yet he's devout, reads the bible before breakfast every day, lives a (reasonably) good life, and understands GDIPlus quite well (usually a sure sign of satanic influence, but we'll overlook it for now). Following on from you comment then, and according to some 900 million humans, Christian has no right to complain if he spends the rest of eternity in hell - he had his choice, and he rejected the truth. And this seems fair to you? If the Catholics are right, then I'm getting ice-cream and supermodels, and Mr Graus gets Linix maintenance programming for all eternity. Tell you what - play it safe. If you haven't already, then whip down to your local Catholic church and get a bit of water splashed on your head. Might be the best 10 minutes you've ever invested. Now, assuming you *aren't* a Catholic, why don;t you do it right now? ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: Because you neatly, and perhaps without thinking about it, just merged two different concepts into one. You overlaid "law breakers" and "free thinkers". I was merely using an analogy. I don't know what will happen to people who don't give up their lives for God. As CG was saying in the thread above, they could simply cease to exist. The bible says that those who are worthy will be rewarded and I would take that to mean that what they get will be better than what the others get (if anything). BTW, you can be a "free thinker" and still be Christian. Mike Burston wrote: The Catholic church says I'm on my way to heaven, no matter what I do. Why? Because I was baptised as an infant. I have been marked as 'belonging to god'. Baptism can't be "removed" - it's written in indelible ink. The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", but is it what God says in the bible? I'm not Catholic, but from what I have seen, most Catholics have not read the whole bible, only selected passages. Your salvation is based upon your relationship with God, not with the Church you attend. My belief is that baptism is required, but in all of the examples of baptism in the New Testament, none have occurred without first hearing then believing the Word. A baby can't do that. After baptism you must also reject sin and submit to God. I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. Mike Burston wrote: Christian has no right to complain if he spends the rest of eternity in hell - he had his choice, and he rejected the truth. And this seems fair to you? I am not God, so I have no right to decide who is going to heaven. If God (through his grace) chooses to let CG in the club then that's his decision. We all make the choice to live selfishly or in a way that is righteous and whole-ly unselfish, I happen to think CG is in good shape, but I don't get to make the ultimate decision. Mike Burston wrote: Now, assuming you *aren't* a Catholic, why don;t you do it right now? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies.
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They very idea of creating intelligent beings to worship ones-self , i find to be undevine. I don't care how much smarter u may be. Ofcourse am not a believer, but i am agianst hate though(i can't choose not to be,am black:):)).
kokie wrote: They very idea of creating intelligent beings to worship ones-self , i find to be undevine. Respect/Love for God and worship of God go hand in hand. If you love and respect God, you are in essence worshipping him. He does not ask us to go to church and tell him how great he is and then go out and ignore him the rest of the week. He wants love, because that is what he has given us.
Jason Henderson
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kokie wrote: They very idea of creating intelligent beings to worship ones-self , i find to be undevine. Respect/Love for God and worship of God go hand in hand. If you love and respect God, you are in essence worshipping him. He does not ask us to go to church and tell him how great he is and then go out and ignore him the rest of the week. He wants love, because that is what he has given us.
Jason Henderson
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"Like it or not, I'm right!"yea... am sure that sounds great to you.
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yea... am sure that sounds great to you.
If you don't like it, that's your choice. I'm just trying to explain my belief just as you did. Do you disagree with me for a reason or do you just want me to go away?
Jason Henderson
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"Like it or not, I'm right!" -
Mike Burston wrote: Because you neatly, and perhaps without thinking about it, just merged two different concepts into one. You overlaid "law breakers" and "free thinkers". I was merely using an analogy. I don't know what will happen to people who don't give up their lives for God. As CG was saying in the thread above, they could simply cease to exist. The bible says that those who are worthy will be rewarded and I would take that to mean that what they get will be better than what the others get (if anything). BTW, you can be a "free thinker" and still be Christian. Mike Burston wrote: The Catholic church says I'm on my way to heaven, no matter what I do. Why? Because I was baptised as an infant. I have been marked as 'belonging to god'. Baptism can't be "removed" - it's written in indelible ink. The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", but is it what God says in the bible? I'm not Catholic, but from what I have seen, most Catholics have not read the whole bible, only selected passages. Your salvation is based upon your relationship with God, not with the Church you attend. My belief is that baptism is required, but in all of the examples of baptism in the New Testament, none have occurred without first hearing then believing the Word. A baby can't do that. After baptism you must also reject sin and submit to God. I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. Mike Burston wrote: Christian has no right to complain if he spends the rest of eternity in hell - he had his choice, and he rejected the truth. And this seems fair to you? I am not God, so I have no right to decide who is going to heaven. If God (through his grace) chooses to let CG in the club then that's his decision. We all make the choice to live selfishly or in a way that is righteous and whole-ly unselfish, I happen to think CG is in good shape, but I don't get to make the ultimate decision. Mike Burston wrote: Now, assuming you *aren't* a Catholic, why don;t you do it right now? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies.
Jason, The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. And you'd probably be right (pending interpretation, of course). However, the Catholic church teaches that the bible is neither the beginning nor the end of god's communication with mankind. Sure, it's the single greatest element in the dialog, but if you restrict yourself to just the books of the bible then you are (might be?) missing part of the conversation. But since you wish to rely on the bible alone as your source of information, then which canon are you using : The Samaritan bible - the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) only. The Protestant bible - 66 books. The Catholic bible - 73 books. The Ethiopian Orthodox church - 81 books. Or do you read all potential biblical works and make up your own mind about which are divine and which are not? Even if you wish to elevate the bible to a position of 'sole source' for your faith, then you are implicitly allowing human factors to influence your knowledge base purely because it is humans that have chosen the canon you work from. If you trust the men who selected the canon, then why do you choose not the trust the men of the Catholic church whenthey write additinal works under 'divine inspiration'? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies. But not baptised as a Catholic. Sorry, but I'm in and you're out. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Disagreeing with what the majority believes is right is a pattern that God's people have followed right though the Bible, and it certainly states this would be the case in our age also. The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. His popint is that the growth of christianity over 2000 years clearly shows it is correct, and he quotes biblical scripture to show that this enormous numerical superiority is all the prrof one could need to see that the bible is accurate. Now you're telling me that the bible predicts that christians must be the minority in order for the bible to be true. What were we saying about bible interpretation... Like I said, if 'heaven' was for people who deserved it, then no-one would be going. I think I know what you mean, but perhaps this is worded poorly? Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? I said I didn't believe it was necesarily eternal torment, it may well be ceasing to exist. Yes, I did catch that. Ceasing to exist. Hmmm... an unsual concept for a christian, but there are so many variations nowadays that I suppose you can add this into the list of possibilities. Can you explain how we can start eliminating possible descriptions of hell? Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Not in the things that matter, no. Such as global floods? Oops..let that go, we've covered that more than once before! How about baptism? Any room to move there? Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Is salvation via works, faith, or both? Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"? If the bible doesn't need interpretation for "the things that matter", then how do we determine what the list of "things that matter" is? Which scripture, without needing interpretation, explains "things that matter"? The detail that is easy to verify is that God exists and does good things in the lives of people who follow Him, starting with rigidly defined and verifiable proof to the individual. You got me there. Can't win an argument about 'personal miracles'. O
Mike Burston wrote: The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. I'm not making any claims regarding what your friend believes, nor do I place any link that means someone being intelligent means they know about God. You only need to look around here to know that is not true. Mike Burston wrote: What were we saying about bible interpretation... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. Mike Burston wrote: Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? It will be, yes. That is what I was trying to say. Mike Burston wrote: Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Yes, because Duran Duran rules. Also because the Bible says that God does not torment anyone, ever. Mike Burston wrote: How about baptism? Any room to move there? The Bible is plain. Believers will be baptised subsequent to repentance, and the word means to be immersed in water. Mike Burston wrote: Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Nowhere. Mike Burston wrote: Is salvation via works, faith, or both? faith alone, but our faith is shown by our works. If we have indeed been saved by faith, living accordingly will be evident in our works. Read James for more on this. Mike Burston wrote: Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? The Bible says there are lots of gifts but in contrast one manifestation of the Spirit which is given to all Christians, and as a result of that uniform manifestation ( speaking in tongues ), every Christian can use all the other gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. Mike Burston wrote: What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? The Bible mentions slavery as something that the society the church lived in practices and provides advice for people in that situation. Abortion is not mentioned AFAIK. Mike Burston wrote: What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"?
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Jason, The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. And you'd probably be right (pending interpretation, of course). However, the Catholic church teaches that the bible is neither the beginning nor the end of god's communication with mankind. Sure, it's the single greatest element in the dialog, but if you restrict yourself to just the books of the bible then you are (might be?) missing part of the conversation. But since you wish to rely on the bible alone as your source of information, then which canon are you using : The Samaritan bible - the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) only. The Protestant bible - 66 books. The Catholic bible - 73 books. The Ethiopian Orthodox church - 81 books. Or do you read all potential biblical works and make up your own mind about which are divine and which are not? Even if you wish to elevate the bible to a position of 'sole source' for your faith, then you are implicitly allowing human factors to influence your knowledge base purely because it is humans that have chosen the canon you work from. If you trust the men who selected the canon, then why do you choose not the trust the men of the Catholic church whenthey write additinal works under 'divine inspiration'? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies. But not baptised as a Catholic. Sorry, but I'm in and you're out. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? Paul is not the only apostle and he should not be the sole focus of an entire organization. I'm not saying that all Catholics will go to hell either. My major beef with the Cath. church is its organization. Its central figure is the Pope (a man) and not Christ. Mike Burston wrote: The Protestant bible - 66 books. Protestant bibles include books written only by apostles (Paul, Luke, Mark, Matthew, John, Peter, James, etc.). These men knew Christ when he was alive (except Paul) and we take that as authority. I have read the book of Enoch which may or may not be authentic, and it is the only other book that I know of that is referenced in the protestant bible by an apostle. If a book does not contradict other books, I may believe it, but your salvation does not depend on which bible you read. I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify: Live your life for God and do everything you can to please him and you will be saved. Whether that means, being baptized (cerimonial cleansing/washing away of sins) and going to church, or believing in God and living righteously then whatever. God will judge you by your heart because that is where your true self resides. I would suggest that if you truely want to know the path to salvation, you should consider all options as I have (I was once a sceptic of "religion" but never of God's existence).
Jason Henderson
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Mike Burston wrote: The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. I'm not making any claims regarding what your friend believes, nor do I place any link that means someone being intelligent means they know about God. You only need to look around here to know that is not true. Mike Burston wrote: What were we saying about bible interpretation... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. Mike Burston wrote: Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? It will be, yes. That is what I was trying to say. Mike Burston wrote: Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Yes, because Duran Duran rules. Also because the Bible says that God does not torment anyone, ever. Mike Burston wrote: How about baptism? Any room to move there? The Bible is plain. Believers will be baptised subsequent to repentance, and the word means to be immersed in water. Mike Burston wrote: Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Nowhere. Mike Burston wrote: Is salvation via works, faith, or both? faith alone, but our faith is shown by our works. If we have indeed been saved by faith, living accordingly will be evident in our works. Read James for more on this. Mike Burston wrote: Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? The Bible says there are lots of gifts but in contrast one manifestation of the Spirit which is given to all Christians, and as a result of that uniform manifestation ( speaking in tongues ), every Christian can use all the other gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. Mike Burston wrote: What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? The Bible mentions slavery as something that the society the church lived in practices and provides advice for people in that situation. Abortion is not mentioned AFAIK. Mike Burston wrote: What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"?
Christian Graus wrote: Mike Burston wrote: Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Nowhere. In Genesis God created man in "our" image which would mean that at least one other God was with him in the beginning. Also, the Gospel of John begins by stating that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. Pretty confusing stuff for mere mortals but if God can create the universe he could also be both fully human (Jesus/the Word) and fully God (the Father). Also, the Holy Spirit is mentioned several times and most christians believe it is the Spirit of God. IMHO, the three are the same yet they serve different purposes to humans. I could be completely wrong though. :confused:
Jason Henderson
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