American History X
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Mike Burston wrote: The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. I'm not making any claims regarding what your friend believes, nor do I place any link that means someone being intelligent means they know about God. You only need to look around here to know that is not true. Mike Burston wrote: What were we saying about bible interpretation... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. Mike Burston wrote: Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? It will be, yes. That is what I was trying to say. Mike Burston wrote: Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Yes, because Duran Duran rules. Also because the Bible says that God does not torment anyone, ever. Mike Burston wrote: How about baptism? Any room to move there? The Bible is plain. Believers will be baptised subsequent to repentance, and the word means to be immersed in water. Mike Burston wrote: Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Nowhere. Mike Burston wrote: Is salvation via works, faith, or both? faith alone, but our faith is shown by our works. If we have indeed been saved by faith, living accordingly will be evident in our works. Read James for more on this. Mike Burston wrote: Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? The Bible says there are lots of gifts but in contrast one manifestation of the Spirit which is given to all Christians, and as a result of that uniform manifestation ( speaking in tongues ), every Christian can use all the other gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. Mike Burston wrote: What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? The Bible mentions slavery as something that the society the church lived in practices and provides advice for people in that situation. Abortion is not mentioned AFAIK. Mike Burston wrote: What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"?
Christian, It's been interesting (as always...), but I gotta go. A few parting comment's and I'll leave the final word to you... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. I'll just disagree here - he's specifically referring to biblical prophecy (he's big on using probability to "prove" the bible correct by demonstrating that prophecy beats the odds). Every person who was not aware of the Gospel will be judged by God on the basis of their works. And the works of a 2 week old infant would be... Read James for more on this. Ah...good old James. I must admit, I like his writings for the depth of his manipulation - a perfectly executed catch 22. Validation for the validated. Who God is, what He offers us, and what we need to do to be part of it Well, that's *your* list of "the things that matter". How do you know that's *all* the important things? Yes, it reveals that God is both good, and powerful. That is all I really need to know, to be honest. Simple and direct - I can admire that. Ultimately meaningless, but still... If you're really interested in the answer to all this, the answer lies in finding out for yourself. Been there, done that. You will eventually, perhaps. Let me make a (useless and undeterminable) predict - should you make 50, you won't be a member of your current church. Why? You're smarter than that, and you know it... Anything else is just endless pontification. Amen to that. I'd be quite happy to recommend a church meeting in your area where these things are understood, preached and experienced by all. Hmm ... no thanks! "Tongues" is too scary for me, I'm afraid. I'll just stick to Rammstein (perhaps that could be interpreted as "tongues"??? hah..) Catch ya later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Jason, The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. And you'd probably be right (pending interpretation, of course). However, the Catholic church teaches that the bible is neither the beginning nor the end of god's communication with mankind. Sure, it's the single greatest element in the dialog, but if you restrict yourself to just the books of the bible then you are (might be?) missing part of the conversation. But since you wish to rely on the bible alone as your source of information, then which canon are you using : The Samaritan bible - the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) only. The Protestant bible - 66 books. The Catholic bible - 73 books. The Ethiopian Orthodox church - 81 books. Or do you read all potential biblical works and make up your own mind about which are divine and which are not? Even if you wish to elevate the bible to a position of 'sole source' for your faith, then you are implicitly allowing human factors to influence your knowledge base purely because it is humans that have chosen the canon you work from. If you trust the men who selected the canon, then why do you choose not the trust the men of the Catholic church whenthey write additinal works under 'divine inspiration'? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies. But not baptised as a Catholic. Sorry, but I'm in and you're out. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? It's actually Peter they claim to follow on from, but the answer is that they do everything the Pharisees did and nothing that Peter OR Paul did. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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Mike Burston wrote: And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? Paul is not the only apostle and he should not be the sole focus of an entire organization. I'm not saying that all Catholics will go to hell either. My major beef with the Cath. church is its organization. Its central figure is the Pope (a man) and not Christ. Mike Burston wrote: The Protestant bible - 66 books. Protestant bibles include books written only by apostles (Paul, Luke, Mark, Matthew, John, Peter, James, etc.). These men knew Christ when he was alive (except Paul) and we take that as authority. I have read the book of Enoch which may or may not be authentic, and it is the only other book that I know of that is referenced in the protestant bible by an apostle. If a book does not contradict other books, I may believe it, but your salvation does not depend on which bible you read. I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify: Live your life for God and do everything you can to please him and you will be saved. Whether that means, being baptized (cerimonial cleansing/washing away of sins) and going to church, or believing in God and living righteously then whatever. God will judge you by your heart because that is where your true self resides. I would suggest that if you truely want to know the path to salvation, you should consider all options as I have (I was once a sceptic of "religion" but never of God's existence).
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"Like it or not, I'm right!"Jason, Thanks for the chat, but I have to go. My major beef with the Cath. church is its organization. Its central figure is the Pope (a man) and not Christ. Well, there you go then. Sounds like your problem is not with the theology of the church, but with it's structure. I suggest you get baptised as a Catholic pretty quick smart, just in case they are right! I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify: Live your life for God and do everything you can to please him and you will be saved. If I wanted a god, I'd pick one like that too! Good for you! However, you *do* realise you are essentially "rolling your own" version of christianity, don't you? Personally, my version will have more supermodel angels, and lots of Heavy Metal elevator music in the lifts in all the tall buildings in heaven...but that's just me. I would suggest that if you truely want to know the path to salvation, you should consider all options as I have (I was once a sceptic of "religion" but never of God's existence). Likewise. I take it then that you have considered deisim, Islam, Tribalism and Buddhism (to name a widely dispersed few) before selecting from one of the 30,000 different variations of christianity? But hey, I'm happy to be judged on my actions in this world - just a bit pissed that you want to drop me in the fiery pits (yes, CG, I know - they may not be all that fiery!!) just because I want to vote Democrate to your Republican. Later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Christian, It's been interesting (as always...), but I gotta go. A few parting comment's and I'll leave the final word to you... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. I'll just disagree here - he's specifically referring to biblical prophecy (he's big on using probability to "prove" the bible correct by demonstrating that prophecy beats the odds). Every person who was not aware of the Gospel will be judged by God on the basis of their works. And the works of a 2 week old infant would be... Read James for more on this. Ah...good old James. I must admit, I like his writings for the depth of his manipulation - a perfectly executed catch 22. Validation for the validated. Who God is, what He offers us, and what we need to do to be part of it Well, that's *your* list of "the things that matter". How do you know that's *all* the important things? Yes, it reveals that God is both good, and powerful. That is all I really need to know, to be honest. Simple and direct - I can admire that. Ultimately meaningless, but still... If you're really interested in the answer to all this, the answer lies in finding out for yourself. Been there, done that. You will eventually, perhaps. Let me make a (useless and undeterminable) predict - should you make 50, you won't be a member of your current church. Why? You're smarter than that, and you know it... Anything else is just endless pontification. Amen to that. I'd be quite happy to recommend a church meeting in your area where these things are understood, preached and experienced by all. Hmm ... no thanks! "Tongues" is too scary for me, I'm afraid. I'll just stick to Rammstein (perhaps that could be interpreted as "tongues"??? hah..) Catch ya later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: A few parting comment's and I'll leave the final word to you... Well, I can't pass an offer like that, now can I ? :P Mike Burston wrote: I'll just disagree here - he's specifically referring to biblical prophecy (he's big on using probability to "prove" the bible correct by demonstrating that prophecy beats the odds). I'm very interested to know where the Bible says this. It does says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ( speaking of the next age ), but I don't see how that can apply to now, it's clearly not happening, even if a majority of knees were bowed, they clearly are not all. Mike Burston wrote: And the works of a 2 week old infant would be... That's for God to decide, not me. My guess is they would be OK, but the Bible does not say. Mike Burston wrote: Ah...good old James. I must admit, I like his writings for the depth of his manipulation - a perfectly executed catch 22. Validation for the validated. James says nothing about validation, just a lot about hypocrisy ( why say you're one thing and act like another ). Mike Burston wrote: Well, that's *your* list of "the things that matter". How do you know that's *all* the important things? Um, because that is what the book is about ? Mike Burston wrote: Been there, done that. You will eventually, perhaps. Let me make a (useless and undeterminable) predict - should you make 50, you won't be a member of your current church. Why? You're smarter than that, and you know it... Funny, my family has been telling me this for years. The reason is that they have not experienced what I have, and take the unscientific approach of assuming it didn't happen without finding out for themselves. Actually, while our church is certainly a broad cross spectrum of society, it's also true that some of the smartest people I have ever known are in it. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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Mike Burston wrote: Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? It's actually Peter they claim to follow on from, but the answer is that they do everything the Pharisees did and nothing that Peter OR Paul did. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
Christian, It's actually Peter they claim to follow on from, but the answer is that they do everything the Pharisees did and nothing that Peter OR Paul did. Oops...put it down to a slow news day, or fast fingers. Yep, meant Peter, not Paul. One of these days I'll have to get you to explain just exactly how you *know* the church broke from Peter (and the architect of christianity, Paul). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
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Christian, It's actually Peter they claim to follow on from, but the answer is that they do everything the Pharisees did and nothing that Peter OR Paul did. Oops...put it down to a slow news day, or fast fingers. Yep, meant Peter, not Paul. One of these days I'll have to get you to explain just exactly how you *know* the church broke from Peter (and the architect of christianity, Paul). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
It's easy - compare Paul's preaching with the last 2,000 years of Catholicism. Paul said that as soon as he was gone the church would corrupt itself, and it did. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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I happened to turn on the TV last night while waiting for the new drive in my filestore machine to format and American History X was on. Coincidentally, I am quite active on a christian newsgroup, although it has gone to the dogs because it gets crossposted with all the american christian newsgroups. A fellow on there posts a lot about how God does not intend to save black people or jews, and as I called him a name ( I think I said he was a vomit stain on the fabric of society ), he is now spamming me with explanations of why jewish people are subhuman. So if anyone saw that film ( which is excellent ) and thought 'surely not today', there are certainly people like that around today. There are even white power sites ( I've seen a few via somethingawful.com, the best bit being when sa reported them, and the sa readers went en masse to abuse these clowns on their online forums ). Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )
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A very powerful film indeed - thought provoking and fantastically acted (Edward Norton in particular).
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: A very powerful film indeed - thought provoking and fantastically acted (Edward Norton in particular). I totally agree! Regards Thomas Sonork id: 100.10453 Thömmi
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I agree - the price of freedom of speech is that everyone gets it, even people are stupid as Willie Brown ( the name which the clown who keeps emailing me uses. I'd laugh if it was his real name. ) True enough Christian, and yet your god will condemn me to an eternity in hell simply because I have a different opinion to him. Obviously he has a low opinion of freedom of thought (not even taking it as far as speech). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: and yet your god will condemn me to an eternity in hell simply because I have a different opinion to him. Obviously he has a low opinion of freedom of thought (not even taking it as far as speech). Freedom of Speech is an American thing, not a Christian thing. I don't recall ever reading where the Christian God (or anyone else's God or Diety, for that matter) ever claimed to be a democracy. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're free to argue over who created them. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Jason, Thanks for the chat, but I have to go. My major beef with the Cath. church is its organization. Its central figure is the Pope (a man) and not Christ. Well, there you go then. Sounds like your problem is not with the theology of the church, but with it's structure. I suggest you get baptised as a Catholic pretty quick smart, just in case they are right! I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify: Live your life for God and do everything you can to please him and you will be saved. If I wanted a god, I'd pick one like that too! Good for you! However, you *do* realise you are essentially "rolling your own" version of christianity, don't you? Personally, my version will have more supermodel angels, and lots of Heavy Metal elevator music in the lifts in all the tall buildings in heaven...but that's just me. I would suggest that if you truely want to know the path to salvation, you should consider all options as I have (I was once a sceptic of "religion" but never of God's existence). Likewise. I take it then that you have considered deisim, Islam, Tribalism and Buddhism (to name a widely dispersed few) before selecting from one of the 30,000 different variations of christianity? But hey, I'm happy to be judged on my actions in this world - just a bit pissed that you want to drop me in the fiery pits (yes, CG, I know - they may not be all that fiery!!) just because I want to vote Democrate to your Republican. Later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------
Mike Burston wrote: I suggest you get baptised as a Catholic pretty quick smart, just in case they are right! :laugh::laugh: I don't think so. Mike Burston wrote: If I wanted a god, I'd pick one like that too! Good for you! However, you *do* realise you are essentially "rolling your own" version of christianity, don't you? You completely ignored the sentences afterward. Living your life for God means that you will know the truth. Otherwise you are shielding yourself from it. Mike Burston wrote: Likewise. I take it then that you have considered deisim, Islam, Tribalism and Buddhism (to name a widely dispersed few) before selecting from one of the 30,000 different variations of christianity? But hey, I'm happy to be judged on my actions in this world - just a bit pissed that you want to drop me in the fiery pits (yes, CG, I know - they may not be all that fiery!!) just because I want to vote Democrate to your Republican. I have not considered all religions but I do know the differences in most of the major religions and was once sceptical of all religions. I now choose to believe in Jesus Christ because there is no other way to the Father except through him. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to know about him to go to heaven but that all men will be judged by God through him. Children do not know him, but everyone is born with the knowledge of good and evil and I believe they will be judged by that. I don't want to drop you in the fiery pits. CG and I are trying to explain our beliefs to you so that you might understand christianity better before you say its a load of crap. If we could also persuade to the faith by explaining ourselves thats even better but its not the main goal (at least for me). If you want to waste your vote on a democrat, thats your own mistake. :laugh:
Jason Henderson
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"Like it or not, I'm right!"