This seems like a reasonable observation
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:shrug: A friend of mine, an old auto mechanic, got out of the business just over a year ago for health reasons. He's back in, but not as a greasemonkey - turns out, the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands, a flashlight, and a shop full of diagnostics tools. If the computer diagnostics don't apply or are incorrect, then they take a guess and call it a day. The result is a lot of cars misdiagnosed and sold off cheap - he now works for a used car lot, buying up misdiagnosed cars at auction and fixing the real problem... An old neighbor of mine used to work at the local steel mill. One day he noticed that the workers on a crew tasked with shaping a part... some sort of flange, if i recall correctly, made to fit a certain sort of pipe. Cut, match, cut again, hammer on it a bit, wrestle it into place. He watched for a bit, took some measurements, and drew up an exact pattern for cuts and bends, turning a two-hour process into a twenty minute one. When his boss found out, he got moved to a different job - the union wouldn't stand for such behavior... The consulting company we use promises developers with a minimum of two years of experience. The average level of skill is no better than that of the interns we hire still in university working toward their degree. I'm starting to suspect two years of college counts as that experience... I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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I certainly don't disagree with any of that and thanks, as usual I enjoy reading your material. Since you :shrugged: (try to put that in an emoticon), i'll assume you don't disagree with the observation. :)
led mike
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leppie wrote:
astronaut architects
Where?
Look up in the clouds, actually beyond, there they scheme their view of the world and how things should be done in their happy place, with no clue whats going on down on earth.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
Look up in the clouds, actually beyond, there they scheme their view of the world and how things should be done in their happy place, with no clue whats going on down on earth.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)Guys, I meant there are really no major toms on the boards here, only cowboys at a push.;P
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True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz, so there's gotta be something to it. It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else. I love it when people look at a resume with 20 years of diverse and mission critical experience, and then ask you for the definition of polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall). While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper. Shockingly, the only thing businesses care about is getting the job done. That said, I love the freedom of our profession, where cowboys, geeks, eggheads and other assorted freaks are all free to sit at the table, as long as they can deliver the goods. You don't find that in the accounting profession. And I believe that this open invitation to all comers is a tremendous boost to innovation. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall).
I like the image that evokes. :-D So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks? ;)
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall).
I like the image that evokes. :-D So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks? ;)
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks?
Just the latter, but at least I'm getting my money's worth! :-D
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
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And it speaks to the issue raised here numerous times about the quality of questions/developers on CP http://www.codethinked.com/post/2008/07/Being-Smart-Does-Not-a-Good-Developer-Make.aspx[^] Standard "Hope it's not a repost" disclaimer.
led mike
Love the article, don't agree with the examples but fully agree with the theory. I qualified in C++, and worked in a Language called Dexterity, a 4th generation language that doesn't even allow you to define classes. I've switched to .Net about 2 years ago and now am I'm one of the most effective developers in our company. I can't explain the difference between an interface and an abstract class (well not very clearly), but I deliver very effective solutions to very big customers using .Net. I'm not a brilliant developer either, and I'm not hugely intelligent, but I am very effective in delivering good solutions. I fully agree that developers have to "want to know more", and be eager to chase "more". In our company attitude (not arrogance) is more important than knowledge in interviews...
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
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I agree completely. The Wild Wide Web is saturated with code cowboys and astronaut architects.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
I agree completely. The Wild Wide Web is saturated with code cowboys and astronaut architects.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
Christopher Duncan wrote:
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz
Christopher Duncan wrote:
It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper.
That article is not about valuing academia above all else nor is it an indulgence in intellectual arrogance. Furthermore if you believe that the people who launched this industry didn't understand how hashtables and stacks worked I believe you are sadly mistaken. Comparing those pioneers to the lame lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy" borders on the absurd.
led mike
If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
Bob Emmett
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True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz, so there's gotta be something to it. It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else. I love it when people look at a resume with 20 years of diverse and mission critical experience, and then ask you for the definition of polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall). While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper. Shockingly, the only thing businesses care about is getting the job done. That said, I love the freedom of our profession, where cowboys, geeks, eggheads and other assorted freaks are all free to sit at the table, as long as they can deliver the goods. You don't find that in the accounting profession. And I believe that this open invitation to all comers is a tremendous boost to innovation. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Me neither, but it would be nice to work in an office where everyone was competent. (Or capable of logical thought, at least.)
Grim MCDBA, MCSD, MCP+SB SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue IS NOT NULL (0 row(s) affected)
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Well, don't forget to include yourself in judgements like this...nobody's a perfect coder...
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Scott Dorman wrote:
"How do I create an array?"
An array creates you! :mad:
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Me neither, but it would be nice to work in an office where everyone was competent. (Or capable of logical thought, at least.)
Grim MCDBA, MCSD, MCP+SB SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue IS NOT NULL (0 row(s) affected)
I think the article was a great read and something that I've struggled with over my 10 years in IT. Growing up I hated math but loved my computer. From my days of writing play programs in BASIC on my PCjr to writing enterprise systems in C# I've wondered how I measured up to the "best" developers out there because I never took an engineering or advanced mathematics class. If I might lean on the article's point a bit I'd say that yes I do. Not because I can give a dissertation on every possible design pattern or algorithm out there (I can't for sure). But I know they exist and I want to learn more about them. I'll have a better Friday for having read this and the comments here on CP. Viva le quest for knowledge!
Mike Devenney
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And it speaks to the issue raised here numerous times about the quality of questions/developers on CP http://www.codethinked.com/post/2008/07/Being-Smart-Does-Not-a-Good-Developer-Make.aspx[^] Standard "Hope it's not a repost" disclaimer.
led mike
Amazes me that developers refuse to learn new skills. A few here would rather surf the net than pick up a SQL book. Even more amazing is that once we replace a legacy system, they're skills are basically obsolete. This means that they could possibly be at the top of the list when layoffs are considered. They seem unable to connect the two - or just don't care. But they seem to just want to collect a paycheck for the least amount of effort. I detect no guilt whatsoever from them for absolutely not 'turning a tap' all day. Admittedly, management is the guilty party here as no accountability is enforced. Grrrrrr!:mad:
What does an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac do? He lies awake at night wondering if there's a dog.
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If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
Bob Emmett
While I have seen plenty of this in my much less considerable experience (and am currently listening to a conversation attempting to justify not learning something "new" even as I type...), I've also found that 'ordinary' businesses (as the article and a couple of other posts suggest) tend not to give two hoots about their developers' coding choices and learning. They (company upper management) want people who will churn out the results they're asked for and if you already know one way to do that, you won't be getting a chance to learn a new way anytime soon without getting together with lower/middle management and instigating some subterfuge. Not to refute that there are many many 'lame and lazy' running around, just a follow-on observation as to how so many once-promising developers can end up being bored into that bin along side folks who started there.
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If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
In my experience (1976-Present) there is another problem, too. Sometimes these new "hot shots" are so into what's "cool" that they never learn how to be conservative with resources AT ANY LEVEL. Being "stuck" in one-way of doing things is not smart, but neither is changing from something that works just because of some "cool" factor. The smart developer (IMHO) knows the difference. -CB :)
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This thread isn't about perfection, it's about competence.
Grim MCDBA, MCSD, MCP+SB SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue IS NOT NULL (0 row(s) affected)
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While I have seen plenty of this in my much less considerable experience (and am currently listening to a conversation attempting to justify not learning something "new" even as I type...), I've also found that 'ordinary' businesses (as the article and a couple of other posts suggest) tend not to give two hoots about their developers' coding choices and learning. They (company upper management) want people who will churn out the results they're asked for and if you already know one way to do that, you won't be getting a chance to learn a new way anytime soon without getting together with lower/middle management and instigating some subterfuge. Not to refute that there are many many 'lame and lazy' running around, just a follow-on observation as to how so many once-promising developers can end up being bored into that bin along side folks who started there.
I agree with what you say, if your immediate management are supportive, you are in with a chance, otherwise ... . I actually left IT 4 years before retirement because I just 'lost the will to live'. So I demanded to be moved to another department.
Bob Emmett
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Bob Emmett wrote:
If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
In my experience (1976-Present) there is another problem, too. Sometimes these new "hot shots" are so into what's "cool" that they never learn how to be conservative with resources AT ANY LEVEL. Being "stuck" in one-way of doing things is not smart, but neither is changing from something that works just because of some "cool" factor. The smart developer (IMHO) knows the difference. -CB :)
Yep One place I was at there were 13 CASE tool manuals, each in its day the 'Silver Bullet', each in turn discarded after a few month's disruption of development work. I was using LSDM (Long Slow Development Method), well on its way to the dusty manual shelf. The silly thing was that there were development teams creating sound work-a-day systems, nobody looked at what they were doing right and adopted it.
Bob Emmett