9/5 or should that be ...
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
Brian Azzopardi wrote: universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. Some would disagree and say that life is the quest for happiness. I too am one who doesn't like the idea of having a 'job' and a 'life' (and never the twain shall meet). But I've had my fair share of both and consider myself the luckiest guy in the world to be doing for 'work' what I was doing in my spare time anyway. As long as what you do makes you happy. Deferred gratification - making a sacrifice initially in order to make your life better further down the track - is definitely a worthy cause (as long as that 'down the track' doesn't stretch on forever and is never attained) cheers, Chris Maunder
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
we definitely need an "essays on programming life" area here.... After "Paul's right"-clicking away his post, The thought struck me: if there's a "house rule", your boss can't force you to work long hours, and I am forced to better plan my day (and plan my project since I can't throw in a wee hour miracle). I definitely wouldn't like this, but I would like to try if it works (on other people :cool:) Just a thought though
You don't need to sleep to see a nightmare Anne Clark [sighist]
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. Some would disagree and say that life is the quest for happiness. I too am one who doesn't like the idea of having a 'job' and a 'life' (and never the twain shall meet). But I've had my fair share of both and consider myself the luckiest guy in the world to be doing for 'work' what I was doing in my spare time anyway. As long as what you do makes you happy. Deferred gratification - making a sacrifice initially in order to make your life better further down the track - is definitely a worthy cause (as long as that 'down the track' doesn't stretch on forever and is never attained) cheers, Chris Maunder
Paul Watson's post was, assuming I understood him correctly, about people liveing a meaningless existence and not trying to be creative with their life. I very much undertand what he's saying simply becuase I too am trying to rise above the teeming masses. I wouldn't consider myself successfull if I made alot of money. There are millions of millionares around. I would much prefer to write a famous book on philosophy. My "idol" so to speak is Socrates - always question what you know. I'd be very very happy if I were to go down in history as a Bertrand Russell or Isaiah Berlin (both are philosophers). Chris Maunder wrote: Some would disagree and say that life is the quest for happiness Yes. But first you've got to survive and then you can worry about the luxury of being happy. I consider myself lucky that my job happens to be something in which I love (coding c++ :)). But my life is not my job: Marx used to say that. And if I anything I'm a rabid anti-communist :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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we definitely need an "essays on programming life" area here.... After "Paul's right"-clicking away his post, The thought struck me: if there's a "house rule", your boss can't force you to work long hours, and I am forced to better plan my day (and plan my project since I can't throw in a wee hour miracle). I definitely wouldn't like this, but I would like to try if it works (on other people :cool:) Just a thought though
You don't need to sleep to see a nightmare Anne Clark [sighist]
peterchen wrote: definitely need an "essays on programming life" area here.. My post is not limited not programming life only but life in general. peterchen wrote: your boss can't force you to work long hours House rules or no house rules you'r boss can still make you work longer :( bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
Brian Azzopardi wrote: You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances Brian at the top of my other post I explicitly said it was not directed at you personally. I have seen 9/5ers, I have worked with them. I took what I have seen of them, what I have discussed with them and wrote about why I think it is bad. So I am not assuming anything about your personal position. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Life is a bitch. Get over it The delusion is that life is a bitch. Life is not a bitch. Life is incredibly glorious. There is no greater thing than life. There is so much opportunity in life, enough for everyone on this planet ten times over. The illusion is that we live in a shit world. No we don't. We think we do and we perpetuate this illusion. God or the universe does not deal us bad cards or good cards. We deal ourselves those cards. And I will not "get over it." "Getting over it" means accepting. Accepting in this case means living a lie. Don't live a lie. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Most people are born to die, a meaningless existence OMG, you cannot honestly believe that! You mean 4 out of 5 people around me have had "fate" say "Thou shalt live a meaningless existence and there is nothing you can do about it, go forth and perpetuate your own misery."? AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH that is EXACTLY humanities problem. It is EXACTLY the attitude that has got us were we are. Our only firm belief is that life sucks. What a terrible and misguided belief. Look my rant was not against working hours. 9/5 is more a condition than a set of working hours to me. It is, as I said to James, this: 9/5 Madness is about people who do not know the vision of the company they work for. Or people who do not believe in that vision. It is about people who blindly accept the situation they are in and do not try to improve it. People who are scared stiff about taking a risk. People who bear a weight they hate, even though they do not have to. If none of that applies to you, then you are not a 9/5er and good for you Brian. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said lol thanks Brian, but why are you honoured by this? I am just curious and would like to know :) Brian
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
An interesting note from Chris Sells on this subject is here[^] Below is a quote from it: "I don't attend meetings or request vacations or approve vacations or attend meetings or receive reviews or give reviews or attend meetings (did I already say that?) or do any of the other things that employees have to do. Skipping these activities easily doubles or triples my productivity. Of course, I had to give up the steady paycheck to make it happen and it's not the life for everyone, but it works for me just fine. : ) Real software engineering has so little to do with actual technology, it's kinda sad. I'm lucky. I only have to do the technology part. My question is, how do people with full-time jobs find the time to learn the technology?" (by Chris Sells). I have to agree with Chris. I fight every day to get a little piece of technology and still do my other duties (we have a system in production). Last night I posted a few messages when it was 3 o'clock in Oslo. I was finishing my article for CodeProject (available now), and unfortunately I couldn't find better time to work on it. But I am happy ;P Vagif Abilov MCP (Visual C++) Oslo, Norway If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them. Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts
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Paul Watson's post was, assuming I understood him correctly, about people liveing a meaningless existence and not trying to be creative with their life. I very much undertand what he's saying simply becuase I too am trying to rise above the teeming masses. I wouldn't consider myself successfull if I made alot of money. There are millions of millionares around. I would much prefer to write a famous book on philosophy. My "idol" so to speak is Socrates - always question what you know. I'd be very very happy if I were to go down in history as a Bertrand Russell or Isaiah Berlin (both are philosophers). Chris Maunder wrote: Some would disagree and say that life is the quest for happiness Yes. But first you've got to survive and then you can worry about the luxury of being happy. I consider myself lucky that my job happens to be something in which I love (coding c++ :)). But my life is not my job: Marx used to say that. And if I anything I'm a rabid anti-communist :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: becuase I too am trying to rise above the teeming masses. You have me wrong. I do not want to rise above the teeming masses. I want the teeming masses to rise above themselves. I want everyone to have as good a life as they can make it. My success and everybody elses is not judged by me or by the norm or status quo. It is judged by the person who is looking to see if they are successful. I have no right to say anybody else is a failure, or even a success. But I have every right to judge myself. I do not want to have a wonderful life at the expense of others or even have a wonderful life while others are suffering. (though admitedly this last statement is probably not attainable within my life time, I can however still dream) Brian Azzopardi wrote: My "idol" so to speak is Socrates - always question what you know Or to add on to that: Always question what is presented to you. i.e. Don't just accept that you have to live a 9/5 existence to support your family. Question it, pull it apart. If afart pulling it apart you realise it is true, then by all means, do it. But just make dead sure you have pulled something apart before you ride it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances Brian at the top of my other post I explicitly said it was not directed at you personally. I have seen 9/5ers, I have worked with them. I took what I have seen of them, what I have discussed with them and wrote about why I think it is bad. So I am not assuming anything about your personal position. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Life is a bitch. Get over it The delusion is that life is a bitch. Life is not a bitch. Life is incredibly glorious. There is no greater thing than life. There is so much opportunity in life, enough for everyone on this planet ten times over. The illusion is that we live in a shit world. No we don't. We think we do and we perpetuate this illusion. God or the universe does not deal us bad cards or good cards. We deal ourselves those cards. And I will not "get over it." "Getting over it" means accepting. Accepting in this case means living a lie. Don't live a lie. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Most people are born to die, a meaningless existence OMG, you cannot honestly believe that! You mean 4 out of 5 people around me have had "fate" say "Thou shalt live a meaningless existence and there is nothing you can do about it, go forth and perpetuate your own misery."? AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH that is EXACTLY humanities problem. It is EXACTLY the attitude that has got us were we are. Our only firm belief is that life sucks. What a terrible and misguided belief. Look my rant was not against working hours. 9/5 is more a condition than a set of working hours to me. It is, as I said to James, this: 9/5 Madness is about people who do not know the vision of the company they work for. Or people who do not believe in that vision. It is about people who blindly accept the situation they are in and do not try to improve it. People who are scared stiff about taking a risk. People who bear a weight they hate, even though they do not have to. If none of that applies to you, then you are not a 9/5er and good for you Brian. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said lol thanks Brian, but why are you honoured by this? I am just curious and would like to know :) Brian
Paul Watson wrote: Life is incredibly glorious. There is no greater thing than life As you live in South Africa this seems even more strange! Around the world 70% of the population live in poverty. Life is glorious indeed. But only for you and me how know that they have a loving family and food on the table when they go home. Do not insult the millions who try to live on $2 a day. For them life is hell. Paul Watson wrote: The illusion is that we live in a sh*t world. No we don't. We think we do and we perpetuate this illusion. It is not an illusion. Children dying of hunger is not an illusion (if only). The long history of humanity is nothing but bloodshed. Unless you're a warmonger, war is sh*t. And so is hunger. You and me don't live in a shit world. 70% of the world does. Paul Watson wrote: Brian Azzopardi wrote: Most people are born to die, a meaningless existence OMG, you cannot honestly believe that! You mean 4 out of 5 people around me have had "fate" say "Thou shalt live a meaningless existence and there is nothing you can do about it, go forth and perpetuate your own misery."? Yes. I do believe it. A poor HIV-infected orphan cannot even begin to imagine life in the West. His fate is sealed. For you and me it's not. We are intelligent enough to realize the possibilites open to us and do something about it. Others do not have many doors open to them. Although life is a bitch I don't accept that its gonna be a bitch to me too. So I do something about. It seems you think the same way too. Others don't. Their problem. Paul Watson wrote: People who are scared stiff about taking a risk Most people are afraid of taking risks. So are you and me. I'm willing to take risks: as long as I know i've got a chance of success (say, starting a business) Paul Watson wrote: vision of the company they work for Do you know what MS, Enron, Adobe, Coca-cola's vision is? To make money. That happens to be my "vision" too :) Your comment about wanting the mass to rise above themselves is revealing. Do you seriously think that the mass is capable of doing that? And what proof have you of this? Do you know how close to Communism here? Let me tell you: very, very close. The mass cannot rise above themselves. Not unless each individual composing that mass wakes up from his/her existence and seeks to better himself. Throughout human history t
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peterchen wrote: definitely need an "essays on programming life" area here.. My post is not limited not programming life only but life in general. peterchen wrote: your boss can't force you to work long hours House rules or no house rules you'r boss can still make you work longer :( bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: House rules or no house rules you'r boss can still make you work longer Oh, so your boss is your master then? You are not in control of your life, are you? When you work for someone, you make a deal that benefits both of you. You do not sign your soul over to them. If they break the deal by attempting to force you to work late, then you walk out and you get another job. It is only your fear that makes you think what I just said is mad. People do it every day, the world has not stopped yet. If you do not like where you are, change it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: House rules or no house rules you'r boss can still make you work longer Oh, so your boss is your master then? You are not in control of your life, are you? When you work for someone, you make a deal that benefits both of you. You do not sign your soul over to them. If they break the deal by attempting to force you to work late, then you walk out and you get another job. It is only your fear that makes you think what I just said is mad. People do it every day, the world has not stopped yet. If you do not like where you are, change it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: Oh, so your boss is your master then? You are not in control of your life, are you? Don't be silly :) Of course I can just leave my job if I don't like it! And I recommend that people should do that too. What I meant is that if your boss told you that the product is late and wanted you to work the extra hours would you refuse? If the product really is late and I don't have a good reason to not do the hours (a sick wife for example) then I would not refuse. Why should I? Being reasonable and willing to reach a compromise is very important you know :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
:confused: man, i will vote this as the longest post i have ever seen in lounge :confused::confused::confused::confused:
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Paul Watson wrote: Life is incredibly glorious. There is no greater thing than life As you live in South Africa this seems even more strange! Around the world 70% of the population live in poverty. Life is glorious indeed. But only for you and me how know that they have a loving family and food on the table when they go home. Do not insult the millions who try to live on $2 a day. For them life is hell. Paul Watson wrote: The illusion is that we live in a sh*t world. No we don't. We think we do and we perpetuate this illusion. It is not an illusion. Children dying of hunger is not an illusion (if only). The long history of humanity is nothing but bloodshed. Unless you're a warmonger, war is sh*t. And so is hunger. You and me don't live in a shit world. 70% of the world does. Paul Watson wrote: Brian Azzopardi wrote: Most people are born to die, a meaningless existence OMG, you cannot honestly believe that! You mean 4 out of 5 people around me have had "fate" say "Thou shalt live a meaningless existence and there is nothing you can do about it, go forth and perpetuate your own misery."? Yes. I do believe it. A poor HIV-infected orphan cannot even begin to imagine life in the West. His fate is sealed. For you and me it's not. We are intelligent enough to realize the possibilites open to us and do something about it. Others do not have many doors open to them. Although life is a bitch I don't accept that its gonna be a bitch to me too. So I do something about. It seems you think the same way too. Others don't. Their problem. Paul Watson wrote: People who are scared stiff about taking a risk Most people are afraid of taking risks. So are you and me. I'm willing to take risks: as long as I know i've got a chance of success (say, starting a business) Paul Watson wrote: vision of the company they work for Do you know what MS, Enron, Adobe, Coca-cola's vision is? To make money. That happens to be my "vision" too :) Your comment about wanting the mass to rise above themselves is revealing. Do you seriously think that the mass is capable of doing that? And what proof have you of this? Do you know how close to Communism here? Let me tell you: very, very close. The mass cannot rise above themselves. Not unless each individual composing that mass wakes up from his/her existence and seeks to better himself. Throughout human history t
*paul goes into a fit of apoplexy* Dear Brian Azzopardi, You have just with virtually every word in this post confirmed exactly what I am saying. The only difference is that you do not believe in the common man while I do. Why? Because I am a common man and I am making a good life for myself. I am not great, I am not special, I am not a unique snow flake compared to the rest. I am part of the mass, so are you. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Although life is a bitch I don't accept that its gonna be a bitch to me too. So I do something about. It seems you think the same way too. Others don't. Their problem. Well you obviously do not see the interconnectedness of life Brian. It is my problem that 80% of South Africans don't want to work and just want to get hand outs. It affects my life. It also makes me despair because every one of those 80% can make their lives better if they just worked and worked a bit smarter. So even if I was selfish, I would want everyone to better themselves. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Your comment about wanting the mass to rise above themselves is revealing. Do you seriously think that the mass is capable of doing that? And what proof have you of this? Yes. The proof is me, it is you and it is every other person who has ever gone on to do something great, of which there are many examples. Chris is an example for instance, do you deny it? Brian Azzopardi wrote: Do you know how close to Communism here? If communism is the belief that the common man can do great things, then call me a communist Brian. However from the little I know of communism, that is not what it is about. In fact it is all about the masses. It is about everyone pulling together, rather than in different directions. Great things have been achieved by one man, and great things have been achieved by many men. The industrial revolution was not one man. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Throughout human history there has always been suffering Yes and before this century it was also true that you could not speak to someone on the other side of the world without actually travelling to them. Obviously suffering is a far larger evil to overcome, but it is nonetheless a human created and human breakable condition. (obviously there will ALWAYS be some form of suffering. You cannot always get the girl or win the race. Eathquakes happen and people die. I am talking about poverty, abo
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. Some would disagree and say that life is the quest for happiness. I too am one who doesn't like the idea of having a 'job' and a 'life' (and never the twain shall meet). But I've had my fair share of both and consider myself the luckiest guy in the world to be doing for 'work' what I was doing in my spare time anyway. As long as what you do makes you happy. Deferred gratification - making a sacrifice initially in order to make your life better further down the track - is definitely a worthy cause (as long as that 'down the track' doesn't stretch on forever and is never attained) cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: As long as what you do makes you happy Chris says in one sentence what I say in ten posts. :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
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*paul goes into a fit of apoplexy* Dear Brian Azzopardi, You have just with virtually every word in this post confirmed exactly what I am saying. The only difference is that you do not believe in the common man while I do. Why? Because I am a common man and I am making a good life for myself. I am not great, I am not special, I am not a unique snow flake compared to the rest. I am part of the mass, so are you. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Although life is a bitch I don't accept that its gonna be a bitch to me too. So I do something about. It seems you think the same way too. Others don't. Their problem. Well you obviously do not see the interconnectedness of life Brian. It is my problem that 80% of South Africans don't want to work and just want to get hand outs. It affects my life. It also makes me despair because every one of those 80% can make their lives better if they just worked and worked a bit smarter. So even if I was selfish, I would want everyone to better themselves. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Your comment about wanting the mass to rise above themselves is revealing. Do you seriously think that the mass is capable of doing that? And what proof have you of this? Yes. The proof is me, it is you and it is every other person who has ever gone on to do something great, of which there are many examples. Chris is an example for instance, do you deny it? Brian Azzopardi wrote: Do you know how close to Communism here? If communism is the belief that the common man can do great things, then call me a communist Brian. However from the little I know of communism, that is not what it is about. In fact it is all about the masses. It is about everyone pulling together, rather than in different directions. Great things have been achieved by one man, and great things have been achieved by many men. The industrial revolution was not one man. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Throughout human history there has always been suffering Yes and before this century it was also true that you could not speak to someone on the other side of the world without actually travelling to them. Obviously suffering is a far larger evil to overcome, but it is nonetheless a human created and human breakable condition. (obviously there will ALWAYS be some form of suffering. You cannot always get the girl or win the race. Eathquakes happen and people die. I am talking about poverty, abo
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: becuase I too am trying to rise above the teeming masses. You have me wrong. I do not want to rise above the teeming masses. I want the teeming masses to rise above themselves. I want everyone to have as good a life as they can make it. My success and everybody elses is not judged by me or by the norm or status quo. It is judged by the person who is looking to see if they are successful. I have no right to say anybody else is a failure, or even a success. But I have every right to judge myself. I do not want to have a wonderful life at the expense of others or even have a wonderful life while others are suffering. (though admitedly this last statement is probably not attainable within my life time, I can however still dream) Brian Azzopardi wrote: My "idol" so to speak is Socrates - always question what you know Or to add on to that: Always question what is presented to you. i.e. Don't just accept that you have to live a 9/5 existence to support your family. Question it, pull it apart. If afart pulling it apart you realise it is true, then by all means, do it. But just make dead sure you have pulled something apart before you ride it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge Alison Pentland wrote: I now have an image of you in front of the mirror in the morning, wearing your knickers, socks and shoes trying to decided if they match!
Paul Watson wrote: But just make dead sure you have pulled something apart before you ride it *Jan kicks some of the more slippery parts of the now vertically challenged horse, -"Now where do I put THIS?..."* "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
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peterchen wrote: definitely need an "essays on programming life" area here.. My post is not limited not programming life only but life in general. peterchen wrote: your boss can't force you to work long hours House rules or no house rules you'r boss can still make you work longer :( bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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*paul goes into a fit of apoplexy* Dear Brian Azzopardi, You have just with virtually every word in this post confirmed exactly what I am saying. The only difference is that you do not believe in the common man while I do. Why? Because I am a common man and I am making a good life for myself. I am not great, I am not special, I am not a unique snow flake compared to the rest. I am part of the mass, so are you. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Although life is a bitch I don't accept that its gonna be a bitch to me too. So I do something about. It seems you think the same way too. Others don't. Their problem. Well you obviously do not see the interconnectedness of life Brian. It is my problem that 80% of South Africans don't want to work and just want to get hand outs. It affects my life. It also makes me despair because every one of those 80% can make their lives better if they just worked and worked a bit smarter. So even if I was selfish, I would want everyone to better themselves. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Your comment about wanting the mass to rise above themselves is revealing. Do you seriously think that the mass is capable of doing that? And what proof have you of this? Yes. The proof is me, it is you and it is every other person who has ever gone on to do something great, of which there are many examples. Chris is an example for instance, do you deny it? Brian Azzopardi wrote: Do you know how close to Communism here? If communism is the belief that the common man can do great things, then call me a communist Brian. However from the little I know of communism, that is not what it is about. In fact it is all about the masses. It is about everyone pulling together, rather than in different directions. Great things have been achieved by one man, and great things have been achieved by many men. The industrial revolution was not one man. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Throughout human history there has always been suffering Yes and before this century it was also true that you could not speak to someone on the other side of the world without actually travelling to them. Obviously suffering is a far larger evil to overcome, but it is nonetheless a human created and human breakable condition. (obviously there will ALWAYS be some form of suffering. You cannot always get the girl or win the race. Eathquakes happen and people die. I am talking about poverty, abo
Dear Paul Watson, Paul Watson wrote: *paul goes into a fit of apoplexy* Please sit and calm down. Stress is bad for your heart you know :) Paul Watson wrote: Why? Because I am a common man and I am making a good life for myself. I am not great, I am not special, I am not a unique snow flake compared to the rest. I am part of the mass, so are you. We are all snowflakes coz we are all different. We are all unique. And to our family and loved ones we are special. But that's not the definition of special which I will talk about. You are right; I do not believe in the common man, even if I may be one myself. Common man leads a common life. QED. You say you're one of them and yet you argue that we should all wake up to our possibilities: it takes more than a common man to do that Paul. And it most definetly requires an uncommon man to realize those possibilities. Do you seriously believe that we can all become great artists/musicians/Jack Welches? If so you're naive and don't understand human nature. Some are taller than others, or fatter, or more good-lucking or more intelligent or more artistic. The average man is average in all these areas. I prefer to set my sights higher (and yes I do know that I'm coming across as being elitist). I do not deny that life is interconnected. In fact that's one of the reasons why I contend that life is a bitch. Because of somebody elses mistakes I have to suffer too. That's not fair is it? Ah well *sigh* Paul Watson wrote: you and it is every other person who has ever gone on to do something great If a person emerges as being great than he was never part of the masses in the first place. They were either considered strange or deranged (Van Gogh) or high ranking individuals (Newton). This is less so today (Fermi, Einstein were "normal" people although Picasso was both strange and a bloody bastard). Paul Watson wrote: If communism is the belief that the common man can do great things, then call me a communist Brian. However from the little I know of communism, that is not what it is about. Let me tell you what it is about: it is believing that man can totally remake society in any way he chooses. It is about building a utopia. It is about setting the common man free. It is alot of nice-sounding ideas written by a man who was the product of his age. Marx lived at a time where science/technology was advancing at an incredible rate. He was
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You're my new hero. Eloquently put. :)
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
I can understand why you say that. Both of you are essentially idealistic and hope to improve the world and build a utopia (some of you on the left anyway). Enjoy your dreams! I envy you that you're able to believe in something which reality (for 70% of the world out there) proves mistaken every day. I can't bring myself to believe an illusion or cling to one. bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Paul Watson here I'm honoured you gave up so much of your time to write such a long post becuase of something I said. :) Do you know how many people complain about working in late? There are many people here work till the early hours of the morning. Would you like to be like them? Or do u prefer to spend quality time with your gf/family? I know what I'd prefer to do. Fortunately, so does my boss. Yes I love having hours I can depend on: 9 to 5 is great. I know that when I get home I'll find my family around and not asleep becuase I got home at 1 in the morning. You are implicitly assuming stuff in your post which is not correct simply becuase you do not know my personal circumstances. I am 23 yrs old, just out of uni and hoping to do an MBA. If you've read my bio you'll know that my background is definetly not IT. I need a good job to pay for the MBA coz it's bloody expensive. We all want a Ferrari but before your run you first gotta learn how to walk. It's useless having high hopes and not doing anything about them. An MBA is the first step on a long road. The 9-5 hours gives me ample time to study the MBA. Now you see why I like the fixed hours? Coz it gives me time to do what I really want not what some drone from Head office decides. RE: yes I would prefer it if my brother (and everyone else for that matter) spent their time productively learning new things instead of vegatiting in front of the box. I try to fix my brother but I have no intention of fixing the world. First of all because it is unfixable and second, because I prefer to get rich instead of going round telling people what to do. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that life and work are (nearly) one and the same thing (you say: "At work and Not At Work. That is destructive"). In fact, I would posit the opposite. It all depends on the person. If you believe so much in your job great. But if like me it's a small step in the larger scheme of things than it's just a job. I do it well but it's still a job. paul watson wrote: "As you can see, 9/5 sickens me. People who kill dreams and hope, sicken me" So you think that working fixed hours kills u? Strange idea no? 9/5 does not kill dreams. Attitude does. "Money has nothing to do with the universe". Mistaken. Money is a form of power. The universe is, ultimately, nothing but the quest for survival. The more money you have the better are your chances. Paul, I'm getting the impression your a dreamer. Dreams are nice. I dream too. But I also keep my feet pla
I'll be working this Sunday because our release is next week. I get paid for 36 hours a week and I do 45 minimum. I also set myself tasks at home that relate to my job and especially skills I see myself needing in the future ( currently it's XML in C# ). I make more than enough money to maintain my lifestyle and buy the toys I want, and beyond that, I agree that 'money has nothing to do with the universe'. Money does not make me happy, my job and my family make me happy, and I consider myself the luckiest guy alive that I literally would do my job for free if it was not paying and I did not need the money. Everyone needs to make enough so they don't have to worry about money, but that is not what life is about. I heard two people on the bus talking about how much they hate their jobs but they are sticking it out for their long service leave and their super so they can retire at 55. That's not life, that's a life sentence. But I agree with you, the difference is attitude. Had I not been willing to teach myself and have a go, I'd still be hating being a sales rep. Christian We're just observing the seasonal migration from VB to VC. Most of these birds will be killed by predators or will die of hunger. Only the best will survive - Tomasz Sowinski 29-07-2002 ( on the number of newbie posters in the VC forum )