What to include in requirements documentations
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SoonerArtie wrote:
With that being said I have seen quicker turn around with SCRUM then a requirements document, but there again that is just my personal experience, and if people have more success using a requirement document to manage their projects more power to them.
I still see scrum as a specific way to work with the requirements document, not a way to get rid of it. What works best strongly depends on the type of project and the team - scrum "intuitively" makes sense for many projects, I agree.
SoonerArtie wrote:
In the end, if mama (the customer) is happy than everybody is typically happier.
I disagreee. And the mantra of scrum seems to be keep the developers happy. :D
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighistpeterchen wrote:
I disagreee. And the mantra of scrum seems to be keep the developers happy. [Big Grin]
The reason I made the previous comment is that I find it gives flexibility on both ends, not just the developer. The customer isn't chained to what they thought they meant when they said X,Y,Z in the requirements document in previous months. That is why it makes our customer happy. :)
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The best methodology is what works for you or the organization. Even with scrum or agile you don't just start off building something, there is planning that goes into.
only two letters away from being an asset
In our case we used a both/and approach a requirements document (a guideline if you will), but we took it further with the SCRUM approach. Yes, I agree with you it is what works best for your organization.
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go ahead! :D
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighistIt is a planned part the evening endgame to do some facilitation of beverages :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document.
Sounds like some-one at your business needs to open a book that describes "Change Control". A lot of people mix up "Change Control" with "version control" (aka "configuration management"). They're different. Once you are aware of your options wrt Change Control, you are in a position to make a decision that bests suits your situation. hth.
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Feedback should influence the requirements. Generally it doesn't become the requirements. What people actually want, and what they ask for, are sometimes quite different.
Graham Bradshaw wrote:
What people actually want, and what they ask for, are sometimes quite different.
and what they actually need may not be that for which they ask, nor what you think they want.
TUT Sancta Simplicitas
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
In my experience, raw feedback from users practically never contains real requirements. I don't remember a single user who could "speak requirements". Well, unless he/she is directly answering certain questions very precisely crafted by a business analyst (in which case I would not call those answers "raw user feedback" ;) ). Typically, requirements have to be "extracted" from user feedback. Therefore I believe that, semantically, raw user feedback is nothing more than source material for requirements, but not a part of requirements. It is incredibly important, but only supplementary information, if you wish. As for logical/physical documentation organization... I think the proper place for user feedback should depend more on technical issues than on semantic ones. If it is really necessary to have one big linear document (like a book) containing not only requirements themselves but all supplementary information, then I do not see any problem with turning user feedback into one of the appendices; after all, appendices would be exactly where all supplementary info should go in such case. However, I think that nobody really needs a single fat "requirements book", and any supplementary info (including user feedback) is perfect candidate for separate documents (or even a database) hyperlinked or otherwise referenced by the document(s) containing actual requirements. BTW, IMHO it is much more important to provide some minimal structure in the document(s) containing raw user feedback. At least, it should be as easy as possible to make references to various fragments in that document. Such references might be very useful when providing justifications or other comments for actual requirements, as well as when discussing requiremens' severities and priorities. Just my 2 cents...
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Graham Bradshaw wrote:
What people actually want, and what they ask for, are sometimes quite different.
and what they actually need may not be that for which they ask, nor what you think they want.
TUT Sancta Simplicitas
And what they need-want-ask-for now is not always what they needed-wanted-asked-for for when they asked for it yesterday. And that is if they even know what they think they want. Most of my clients don't even know what they actually do, let alone what they want... X| ...and for some perverted reason, that is one of the reasons I love my job! ;P
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
To me a Requirements Document and Project Management Plan need to be created at the same time, and refined experientially during the Project. A static plan with heavy time schedules and tight budgets allows some control but does not always produce something the user community will adopt unless the scope is very limited. I am not convinced that a Requirements Document can be written once any more than code can be. It would be nice if the Analysis, Design, Coding, and Testing was linear, but in practice it is not. It is always experiential. What has helped me is to have a section that outlines what is NOT included as well as what is included. Otherwise it is too open-ended to be managed. The scope drifts and the project disintegrates. Developing each stage and step by including a review of the last step before finalizing the next step, allows Developer, QA, and User input. Adjusting the project with regularly scheduled meetings keeps it on target. The longer the review interval, the more project drift than can result. Letting Management and Users see interim results keeps the project relevant and builds loyalty. Not everyone likes consultants, sometimes for good reasons. But one of the best Books I found on this topic comes from Touche Ross - The System Development Process. These may not be popular ideas in the RAD world. I have found them to be what happens in practice. Selling management on them before getting into a project of any scope may be your best approach. Otherwise you may be the problem rather than the solution when the results are measured and the bouquets or bricks are thrown.
"Coding for fun and profit ... mostly fun"
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
...are really freaking boring to write. before i only had to write code, and we used to have these folks who kind of failed out of writing code...and made a career out of writing these things... they would burn all kinds of hours making the document looking fancy for the client (and we would always be short of coding hours and go over budget)... ...i don't recall ever reading one cuz my supe or lead would say "we need this ...", and i would go do it, and write some test harness for it...and it would get baselined. i am writing a requirements doc now... and it will NEVER have anything like "feedback on alpha or beta testing" in it... cuz i would never think about putting that kind of stuff mine. tell the dude he's out to lunch (nicely) :cool:
David
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
The main point to me is requirements' modifications occuring during alfa and beta testing. Usually, at this point the scope of reqs should have a rather crisp form. If a customer feedback is to have an influence to the reqs it should be treated as a change request (CR) with a clear assessment wrt risk/benefit. The modified req entry should contain a reference to the respective user feedback. I'd rather have alfa and beta feedback reports as a standalone document as it is a product evaluation rather than a definition.
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No not a programming question, just an opinion and common practice question. We have recently been having a lively discussion at work with our tech writer and PM about what to include in the requirements documents. They want to add user feedback from alpha and beta testing to the document. My opinion is that the actual feedback doesn't belong there. It should be stored elsewhere and incorporated into the requirements.
only two letters away from being an asset
Feedback on previous versions, or whatever, should go to your product management people, to be taken into consideration when producing requirements. If you don't do agile/scrum, it is also a good idea to produce separate docs (or have info sessions) for the developers who will be working on the project, to let them know the source of each item in the reqs -- this is to improve performance/this is because customers A, F, & G want it, etc. But put feedback directly into the reqs? Not in a million years. It doesn't belong there. The reqs should state, point by point, what the app will do, not what people might want it to do. (You can, of course, cross-refer to proposal documents in the reqs, to point out why a requirement was considered.) Feedback from alphas and/or betas can be used to update and amend the requirements, but in the same way -- the feedback itself should not be in the reqs. The long and the short of it is that reqs say "This is what it must be made to do", not "this is what people would like it to do". The latter is for project proposals. Reqs come later than that.
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peterchen wrote:
"facilitating leverages"
For a moment there, I read "facilitating beverages" (whether it be Dr. Pepper or :beer: ) :laugh:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
Dr. Pepper's a quack, but you can always trust beer.
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Dr. Pepper's a quack, but you can always trust beer.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Dr. Pepper's a quack
Hey! :laugh: Beer is best in the home office. Client sites where beer is inappropriate, Dr. Pepper fits the bill ;P
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Mark Wallace wrote:
Dr. Pepper's a quack
Hey! :laugh: Beer is best in the home office. Client sites where beer is inappropriate, Dr. Pepper fits the bill ;P
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
??? Sorry, but I'm going to have to think on this for a while...
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??? Sorry, but I'm going to have to think on this for a while...
No, I'm sorry, but I really don't get it. You say "beer is inappropriate", and all processing just locks up. It's the kind of paradoxical statement that destroyed the computer in Forbidden Planet.
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No, I'm sorry, but I really don't get it. You say "beer is inappropriate", and all processing just locks up. It's the kind of paradoxical statement that destroyed the computer in Forbidden Planet.
Mark Wallace wrote:
"beer is inappropriate"
Client sites that is, professional places of work. Where other people are doing business with multi-million dollar customers. Hope you get it now :~ In my home office, beer is appropriate ;P Actually, most days in the home office are designated beer and pizza days :-D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Mark Wallace wrote:
"beer is inappropriate"
Client sites that is, professional places of work. Where other people are doing business with multi-million dollar customers. Hope you get it now :~ In my home office, beer is appropriate ;P Actually, most days in the home office are designated beer and pizza days :-D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
You're quite right. I would expect a grateful customer to offer me a decent wine, not beer.
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You're quite right. I would expect a grateful customer to offer me a decent wine, not beer.
Mark Wallace wrote:
grateful customer to offer me a decent wine, not beer.
Either one works :-D It is more of a matter of when it is an appropriate time. You certainly wouldn't want to be wasted when trying to bring in new clients, but a celebration of closing a deal, that's different :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Mark Wallace wrote:
grateful customer to offer me a decent wine, not beer.
Either one works :-D It is more of a matter of when it is an appropriate time. You certainly wouldn't want to be wasted when trying to bring in new clients, but a celebration of closing a deal, that's different :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
Actually, that's a tricky one. If you show a potential client thst he's going to have fun, when dealing with you (whether or not booze is involved), then he's likely to think of you first. Laughter works unseen miracles. But, considering what we charge, it's probabaly best to get them well and truly toasted before slapping the contract down on the desk for them to sign.
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Actually, that's a tricky one. If you show a potential client thst he's going to have fun, when dealing with you (whether or not booze is involved), then he's likely to think of you first. Laughter works unseen miracles. But, considering what we charge, it's probabaly best to get them well and truly toasted before slapping the contract down on the desk for them to sign.
Mark Wallace wrote:
show a potential client thst he's going to have fun, when dealing with you (whether or not booze is involved), then he's likely to think of you first. Laughter works unseen miracles.
I agree. It can make it a non hostile environment, in which work can be fun and not some brain-numbing drudgery that needs to be done to pay the bills.
Mark Wallace wrote:
considering what we charge, it's probabaly best to get them well and truly toasted before slapping the contract down on the desk for them to sign.
Yep, anything to take the sting out of it :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon