I (not) heart *nix
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calm down and breathe... working with *some* nix's is a pain ... red hat sucks as far as im concerned precisely because of what you say about random places for files ... most other distros use standard stuff as for "man" ... yeah ... i never use it ... "google" is better ;)
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
l a u r e n wrote:
calm down and breathe...
:laugh: Just sip some :beer: :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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The JZ wrote:
changed much in 30 years because it works
Bullshit. That's the excuse that's used to just stop thinking. It *sort* of works. It gets you 75-80% there. But then the rest is just a kludge built on a hack. For example, take file permissioning. It *works*. Sort of. But it's not scalable. Take the "everything is a file" idea. It's simplistic, and it works. But is it really what you want? Probably not. Take the command line in general. For example, in unix if you type cp, you get
bash-2.05$ cp
cp: missing file arguments
Try `cp --help' for more information.or perhaps
$ cp
cp: missing file operand
Try `cp --help' for more information.Not horribly helpful. Compare this to an OS like OpenVMS (which was actually *designed* as opposed to the ad-hoc throw-something-against-the-wall-and-hope-it-sticks methodology that unix has mostly developed from). In VMS if you leave off arguments you're actually prompted to fill in something, like:
$ copy
_From: (you type in something, then hit return)
_To: (you type in something, then hit return)I can understand in 1970 that this kind of thing might have been missing. But for it *still* to be missing in 2008 is just inexcusable, IMHO.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
I've often wondered why DOS (and later, UNIX) didn't prompt you for missing parameters. I wrote my copy and move programs in college that way (prompting).
Cheers, Vıkram.
"if abusing me makes you a credible then i better give u the chance which didnt get in real" - Adnan Siddiqi.
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The JZ wrote:
changed much in 30 years because it works
Bullshit. That's the excuse that's used to just stop thinking. It *sort* of works. It gets you 75-80% there. But then the rest is just a kludge built on a hack. For example, take file permissioning. It *works*. Sort of. But it's not scalable. Take the "everything is a file" idea. It's simplistic, and it works. But is it really what you want? Probably not. Take the command line in general. For example, in unix if you type cp, you get
bash-2.05$ cp
cp: missing file arguments
Try `cp --help' for more information.or perhaps
$ cp
cp: missing file operand
Try `cp --help' for more information.Not horribly helpful. Compare this to an OS like OpenVMS (which was actually *designed* as opposed to the ad-hoc throw-something-against-the-wall-and-hope-it-sticks methodology that unix has mostly developed from). In VMS if you leave off arguments you're actually prompted to fill in something, like:
$ copy
_From: (you type in something, then hit return)
_To: (you type in something, then hit return)I can understand in 1970 that this kind of thing might have been missing. But for it *still* to be missing in 2008 is just inexcusable, IMHO.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
I respectfully disagree. :) Other than freshman-level engineering students, I don't know any Unix users who have to look up the syntax for the copy command. :) I find Unix being an entirely different mindset, and I find Unix to be much, much more powerful than any Windows I've ever used. I can do operations in Unix in 5 minutes that would take a whole day in Windows. A short digression: Recently for my research, I created a Unix command line tool. The source of the research's funding did not like that as they wanted a program with a graphical interface. Their reasoning being that their employees did not have the time to learn a command line program. (Now these are people who are performing IV&V on safety-critical software.) To which I replied, "You have people doing safety-critical IV&V who can't use a command line???" :omg:
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Jim Crafton wrote:
the idiotic unix command line syntax
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells. that we can now write VBScript for batch files instead of classic .BAT, only seems like progress in light of the fact that DOS itself is barely functional. BASIC? talk about 1972! (ok, i guess you can run JScript in WSH, too)
image processing toolkits | batch image processing
modified on Monday, August 4, 2008 4:26 PM
Chris Losinger wrote:
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells.
PowerShell doesn't work for you?
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I've been given some more linux boxes to admin. Which means I've had to spend time today (well most of the day so far) randomly (re)learning the idiotic unix command line syntax needed to get things done. And I've had it up to *here* with the brain dead design and implementation of unix. Why is this system so popular? How is it possible for *multiple* generations of programmers to have their collective heads so deeply buried in the sand that virtually no real change or innovation has occurred in 30 years? Classic example, you need help, so what do you type? "man". That's right a 3 letter command (and you'd better be grateful it has a vowel, most don't), short for manual. Why not "manual", well that would be too much typing and apparently we're all still using 9 baud modems circa 1972. And to add insult to injury, it's a noun. Yes, you want to "perform" something, a verb, yet you're required to remember a noun. News break boys: it was idiotic in 1970, and *30* goddamn years later it's still stupid. Whatever. And why is it so hard to agree on a friggin file system layout and then everyone play nice? Isn't that what's supposed to be so great about open platforms? Apparently not, as genius wunderkinds at RedHat feel that they can add value by strewing random files for various common programs (like Apache) all over the place, leaving you, as the sys admin, to waste time spent randomly searching for config files. For example, if you build apache from source, the end result gets put into a standard set of directories. Binaries, configs, etc, all easy to find. If you install the apache module pre-built by red hat, thinking you'll save time, or be more "standard", or whatever goofy rationalization you're making, using their rpms, then no, we'll just randomly move shit around because we're *RedHat* and we know better. Dumbasses. And of course all the cute little techniques I've learned (again) today, will soon become forgotten because their so completely useless to what I do on a day to day basis, which is programming, most of the time. It's like you're trying to get useful work done with a bizarre 5 dimensional Rube Goldberg contraption that never really worked well to begin with, and now has so many patches, upon hacks, upon clever kludges, upon duct taped clusterfucks, that a nearby dog with a bad case of flatulence can blow the whole thing down. I hate *nix. Working with *nix makes me want to beat people with a club.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real
Programmers do not good admins make. Be thankful you are not administering Windows.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
Programmers do not good admins make. Be thankful you are not administering Windows.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Be thankful you are not administering Windows.
I wish! :) I admin about 6 or more Windows boxes as well. :) Joy Joy Happy Fun Times :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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I respectfully disagree. :) Other than freshman-level engineering students, I don't know any Unix users who have to look up the syntax for the copy command. :) I find Unix being an entirely different mindset, and I find Unix to be much, much more powerful than any Windows I've ever used. I can do operations in Unix in 5 minutes that would take a whole day in Windows. A short digression: Recently for my research, I created a Unix command line tool. The source of the research's funding did not like that as they wanted a program with a graphical interface. Their reasoning being that their employees did not have the time to learn a command line program. (Now these are people who are performing IV&V on safety-critical software.) To which I replied, "You have people doing safety-critical IV&V who can't use a command line???" :omg:
The JZ wrote:
Other than freshman-level engineering students, I don't know any Unix users who have to look up the syntax for the copy command.
Well, I for one find it easier to remember a handful of simple flags [^] rather than a dogs breakfast of options[^]. but maybe that's just me...
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
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Jim Crafton wrote:
the idiotic unix command line syntax
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells. that we can now write VBScript for batch files instead of classic .BAT, only seems like progress in light of the fact that DOS itself is barely functional. BASIC? talk about 1972! (ok, i guess you can run JScript in WSH, too)
image processing toolkits | batch image processing
modified on Monday, August 4, 2008 4:26 PM
Chris Losinger wrote:
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells.
Batch Files[^] are far more powerful than you think. ;)
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
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I've often wondered why DOS (and later, UNIX) didn't prompt you for missing parameters. I wrote my copy and move programs in college that way (prompting).
Cheers, Vıkram.
"if abusing me makes you a credible then i better give u the chance which didnt get in real" - Adnan Siddiqi.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I've often wondered why DOS (and later, UNIX) didn't prompt you for missing parameters.
Ever write batch files / scripts? Commands that prompt when you don't want them to suck. They're the equivalent of low-level Win32 library functions throwing up message boxes. On DOS, the commands that prompt for confirmation generally have switches to override the behavior (
/Y), while on *nix there's a command that confirms infinitely.Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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The JZ wrote:
Other than freshman-level engineering students, I don't know any Unix users who have to look up the syntax for the copy command.
Well, I for one find it easier to remember a handful of simple flags [^] rather than a dogs breakfast of options[^]. but maybe that's just me...
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
Miszou wrote:
but maybe that's just me...
Yeah, just you. ;P Well, COPY's simplicity is good enough for simple things, but i almost always end up using the much more full-featured XCOPY[^] for anything more interesting than "
copy _<src>_ _<dest>_" (which is roughly the same between DOS and *nix).Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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Chris Losinger wrote:
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells.
Batch Files[^] are far more powerful than you think. ;)
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
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Speaking of a dog's breakfast...;P
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Touché :laugh:
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
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And yet I will respond to Jim, James, Jimmy, Jim-Bob (OK, well maybe not so much). Unix, on the other hand, only knows "man". Sigh. Why not have the command be "manual" and us pattern matching to respond to a shorthand version? Of course you can use the alias command to make your own shortcuts, but that's all manual. Again, it's 2008, let's see some real innovation here!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
it's 2008, let's see some real innovation here!
MS still crowbar a lot of filenames to 8.3 format so *nix is not alone.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I've often wondered why DOS (and later, UNIX) didn't prompt you for missing parameters.
Ever write batch files / scripts? Commands that prompt when you don't want them to suck. They're the equivalent of low-level Win32 library functions throwing up message boxes. On DOS, the commands that prompt for confirmation generally have switches to override the behavior (
/Y), while on *nix there's a command that confirms infinitely.Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Good point. Thanks, Shog.
Cheers, Vıkram.
"if abusing me makes you a credible then i better give u the chance which didnt get in real" - Adnan Siddiqi.
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Chris Losinger wrote:
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells.
Batch Files[^] are far more powerful than you think. ;)
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
that's awesome :) intuitive? no. but awesome nonetheless.
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Chris Losinger wrote:
oh, how i'd love it if Windows had a command line half as smart as any of the unix shells.
PowerShell doesn't work for you?
actually, no... because i can't install it. i get some error about invalid certificates and insufficient permissions (Vista).
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I respectfully disagree. :) Other than freshman-level engineering students, I don't know any Unix users who have to look up the syntax for the copy command. :) I find Unix being an entirely different mindset, and I find Unix to be much, much more powerful than any Windows I've ever used. I can do operations in Unix in 5 minutes that would take a whole day in Windows. A short digression: Recently for my research, I created a Unix command line tool. The source of the research's funding did not like that as they wanted a program with a graphical interface. Their reasoning being that their employees did not have the time to learn a command line program. (Now these are people who are performing IV&V on safety-critical software.) To which I replied, "You have people doing safety-critical IV&V who can't use a command line???" :omg:
There's a world of difference between being able to use a command line and a GUI. Most of the time, the user can navigate the GUI out of the box. With a command line app, the user has to know what options to pick and which arguments to specify. Also, the application itself can't do anything to help the process along with a command line application, since it isn't even running when the user is typing the command line in.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Since 1997 I have been administering windows machines and since 2004 about the same # of linux machines. I very much prefer administering linix machines to windows machines. One reason is the command line part of windows sucks forcing you to use the slow user interface and watch the silly animations while you move files. And then most installations / upgrades require lots of user interaction. To upgrade my gentoo system I type
emerge -uD worldand let the machine do the rest. This will find, download and install updates for every single package I have in my system. Much easier than me doing all the work. The other big reason. Is no antivirus or antispyware software is needed on linux machines and so I do not have to deal with the headaches that these horrible programs cause. On the part of files and their locations. I agree with you on that. I believe most of this is due to the fact that their are way too many distributions and every distribution wants to do things their own way...John
John M. Drescher wrote:
One reason is the command line part of windows sucks forcing you to use the slow user interface and watch the silly animations while you move files.
Hmm... In a Windows (both client and server) CMD box this command will move files and folders without the silly UI animation: "move {source} {target}" and you can add the optional /Y to suppress overwriting prompts. Truth be told, 99% of your old DOS commands still work in Windows client and server editions without having to wait for silly slow user interface animations. You can even join domains and add domain users using the command line.
Mike Poz
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I've been given some more linux boxes to admin. Which means I've had to spend time today (well most of the day so far) randomly (re)learning the idiotic unix command line syntax needed to get things done. And I've had it up to *here* with the brain dead design and implementation of unix. Why is this system so popular? How is it possible for *multiple* generations of programmers to have their collective heads so deeply buried in the sand that virtually no real change or innovation has occurred in 30 years? Classic example, you need help, so what do you type? "man". That's right a 3 letter command (and you'd better be grateful it has a vowel, most don't), short for manual. Why not "manual", well that would be too much typing and apparently we're all still using 9 baud modems circa 1972. And to add insult to injury, it's a noun. Yes, you want to "perform" something, a verb, yet you're required to remember a noun. News break boys: it was idiotic in 1970, and *30* goddamn years later it's still stupid. Whatever. And why is it so hard to agree on a friggin file system layout and then everyone play nice? Isn't that what's supposed to be so great about open platforms? Apparently not, as genius wunderkinds at RedHat feel that they can add value by strewing random files for various common programs (like Apache) all over the place, leaving you, as the sys admin, to waste time spent randomly searching for config files. For example, if you build apache from source, the end result gets put into a standard set of directories. Binaries, configs, etc, all easy to find. If you install the apache module pre-built by red hat, thinking you'll save time, or be more "standard", or whatever goofy rationalization you're making, using their rpms, then no, we'll just randomly move shit around because we're *RedHat* and we know better. Dumbasses. And of course all the cute little techniques I've learned (again) today, will soon become forgotten because their so completely useless to what I do on a day to day basis, which is programming, most of the time. It's like you're trying to get useful work done with a bizarre 5 dimensional Rube Goldberg contraption that never really worked well to begin with, and now has so many patches, upon hacks, upon clever kludges, upon duct taped clusterfucks, that a nearby dog with a bad case of flatulence can blow the whole thing down. I hate *nix. Working with *nix makes me want to beat people with a club.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real
Jim Crafton wrote:
Classic example, you need help, so what do you type? "man". That's right a 3 letter command (and you'd better be grateful it has a vowel, most don't), short for manual. Why not "manual", well that would be too much typing and apparently we're all still using 9 baud modems circa 1972. And to add insult to injury, it's a noun. Yes, you want to "perform" something, a verb, yet you're required to remember a noun. News break boys: it was idiotic in 1970, and *30* goddamn years later it's still stupid. Whatever.
Well, to be fair, imagine the real world impact of renaming man pages to something different would be. Does everyone adopt it? All legacy distros? Retrain millions of users to accept the new buzzword? I prefer standardization even if it doesn't quite make sense initially. For instance, I which both Linux and Windows share the same standard for undo/redo. Ctrl-Z/Ctrl-Y on Windows, and Ctrl-Z-Ctrl-Shift-Z on Linux. But to change this now in either OS would be painful for the entire group of users for that system. So I use both. I hear your gripes, but I'm not sure I'm that sympathetic*. *regarding the naming conventions and the desire to make them more modern that is....
I've heard more said about less.
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senylity wrote:
It makes it better, right
If they would genuinely fix things, innovate, and change, then yes. Sadly this doesn't really happen. Witness the continued popularity of make, automake, autoconf, init, etc.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
Witness the continued popularity of make
...verses the current popularity of NAnt. ;)
I've heard more said about less.