Mathematically-troubled Computer Scientist?
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Ian Uy wrote:
How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life?
They are important. How can you know how to better design an algorithm if you don't understand how Big O Notation works? Or how can you show a boss that you have created an algorithm that is the most efficient for a particular problem at hand? You need the math background in order to do so.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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cooking analogy... marinated briskets... next time i turn on the tv "cooking for geeks! hosted by Shog"
----------------------------------------------------------- "When I first saw it, I just thought that you really, really enjoyed programming in java." - Leslie Sanford
jgasm wrote:
turn on the tv "cooking for geeks! hosted by Shog"
Now maybe if some Food Network guys could get him on the air :)
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Ian Uy wrote:
How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life?
In my job (machinery construction), there are significant parts that need maths to be solved, when you make inverse kinematics and when you have to calculate specific functions to predict a behaviour or to correct one in order to get the job done properly... There are jobs that need a lot of math out there (3D apps...) but there are others that do not need them (DB programming...).
Ian Uy wrote:
Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math?
I'm not very good at math, and I'm the one that manages the IT department in our company. I'd love to know more on this topic as sometimes I need an extra help that I know that would not be needed if I knew more on maths. But in the other hand I'm full of experience on my job after 10 years of working here and I can make very special things (even without maths). Hope this helps... PS: Anyway, if you are still into the studying part of your life I would try to make an effort, believe it or not, now you have plenty of time to make things like that, and depending on the job you want to do, you will need them and you'll be more prepared.
Last time I presented a report on "Random Numbers", using a Linear Congruential Generator (Lehmer Generator). I read a lot of materials and the underlying math about the simple equation. In the end, I was still unable to understand how modding an integer to a larger prime number gives "pseudo random" characteristics. While reading thru the mathematical proofs and theorems, I regretted not loving math in grade school.
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
My personal opinion is that you do need to be competent in maths to be effective in any field of engineering or science. Initially I struggled with calculus but was told by my adviser to tough it out and if I threw myself into it that I would eventually "get it". He was right, in the end I finished with a minor in math and was a calculus teaching assistant for a short time. So, tough it out and apply yourself; take a few extra math courses if you need to.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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I passed calculus by memorizing the "formulas" and the "patterns" on my professors lectures to answer the quizzes. I never UNDERSTAND why they do "this" and "that" to get "those". I don't even know what Calculus is for. That may explain why I never liked Math in the first place. :(
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Take some physics classes as well as some electrical engineering classes and you should see it all come together. That's how it worked for me. Physics really drove home calculus and taking 2nd year electrical engineering class while taking differential equations. It was really nice seeing learning in one class effected my knowledge in the other subject, but I was a math and comp eng. major and the math came easy. Did you have to do any word problems were you were supposed to apply the knowledge instead for show the derivative/integral of this equation? It might help you understand that a little better.
Mike Lasseter
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Ian Uy wrote:
How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life?
They are important. How can you know how to better design an algorithm if you don't understand how Big O Notation works? Or how can you show a boss that you have created an algorithm that is the most efficient for a particular problem at hand? You need the math background in order to do so.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms. I realize that this is not the "scientific" way of doing this. One should be able to say that "My algorithm is linear while the other guy is quadratic". :doh:
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
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You think you've got it bad - my whole kitchen still smells like it. Seriously tempted to try a BBQ breakfast... :~
jgasm wrote:
because of my obsession with food...someone's mind is in the gutter.
Hey, i assure you, my mind is on high and noble matters. My rich and tangy sauce, for instance.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Mmmmmm, BBQ'd corn flakes ....
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Ian Uy wrote:
How can I relate Integral Calculus to programming?
I think you're looking at this the wrong way around. Calculus is used in many engineering tasks; software is needed to reduce errors and tedium inherent in such calculations; if you have a poor understanding of the math involved, you're gonna have a hard time implementing the algorithms. When i left school, i had pretty much the same attitude: "i'll never use this, so why remember it?" A few years later, i'm working with engineers on software to calculate acoustics and airflow through complex shapes... For the most part, i stick to the UIs, but more and more i find myself digging up web references and old textbooks to try to bring this stuff back. Where i paid attention, it comes easy and i get things done; where i just worked to get by, i struggle.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
i had pretty much the same attitude: "i'll never use this, so why remember it?"
Well, the same thing here. I figured I'd never need it, came across the need for all that good calculus stuff, popped open my old calculus book and it all came back. Just like riding a bike, once learned how, it pretty much sticks for the most part :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms. I realize that this is not the "scientific" way of doing this. One should be able to say that "My algorithm is linear while the other guy is quadratic". :doh:
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Ian Uy wrote:
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms.
This would get you fired or put on code maintenance at a lot of places I've worked at. I'm not trying to be harsh but, why even bother with a science degree if you are going to ignore the science aspect.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Ian Uy wrote:
How can I relate Integral Calculus to programming?
I think you're looking at this the wrong way around. Calculus is used in many engineering tasks; software is needed to reduce errors and tedium inherent in such calculations; if you have a poor understanding of the math involved, you're gonna have a hard time implementing the algorithms. When i left school, i had pretty much the same attitude: "i'll never use this, so why remember it?" A few years later, i'm working with engineers on software to calculate acoustics and airflow through complex shapes... For the most part, i stick to the UIs, but more and more i find myself digging up web references and old textbooks to try to bring this stuff back. Where i paid attention, it comes easy and i get things done; where i just worked to get by, i struggle.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Or even something as mundane as caching loaded win forms (which could take 2-3 seconds to load from scratch) and inventing a mechanism to determine which ones should be dropped and which should stay resident. Determining the utility of a form to a user was fun but required a bit of maths revision.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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I passed calculus by memorizing the "formulas" and the "patterns" on my professors lectures to answer the quizzes. I never UNDERSTAND why they do "this" and "that" to get "those". I don't even know what Calculus is for. That may explain why I never liked Math in the first place. :(
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Ian Uy wrote:
I never UNDERSTAND why they do "this" and "that" to get "those".
Sounds like you didn't have a good instructor. They should have covered how and why things work the way they work in calculus. As far as seeing how integral calculus fits into computer programming, just wait until you have a project that is dealing with physics/engineering stuff, that warrants a need for it.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
don't think statistics is even worth studying
You are right! (47% of the Time)
------------------------------------ "Password Protected? You're dealing with Geeks, just turn it on, type Gandalf and you're in!" - Frankie Boyle
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Ian Uy wrote:
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms.
This would get you fired or put on code maintenance at a lot of places I've worked at. I'm not trying to be harsh but, why even bother with a science degree if you are going to ignore the science aspect.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
Because a science degree will get you a better higher paying job? (At least in this 3rd-world country)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
-
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms. I realize that this is not the "scientific" way of doing this. One should be able to say that "My algorithm is linear while the other guy is quadratic". :doh:
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Well, running a bunch of benchmarks and timing them is okay. An even better thing to do, that I did when I took algorithms in college, is to actually count the number of times instructions were executed during program flow. While you can just run some benchmarks, sitting down and actually proving the efficiency of the algorithm mathematically, saves you from any surprises that may cause the algorithm to perform worse than expected in some unknown case.
Ian Uy wrote:
One should be able to say that "My algorithm is linear while the other guy is quadratic"
But to some, that just isn't going to cut it or make the grade. They'll want to see proof of it, and a bunch of numbers pulled up from benchmarking isn't going to hack it.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
-
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms. I realize that this is not the "scientific" way of doing this. One should be able to say that "My algorithm is linear while the other guy is quadratic". :doh:
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Ian Uy wrote:
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms.
Because that doesn't give you the same information. An O(n) algorithm might appear faster than an O(1) algorithm if n is small and O is considerably larger in the second case. I've spent entirely too much time in the past few years cleaning up old code written to retrieve data with O(n) or worse characteristics. It presumably worked fine for a few years, then the sets of data being searched become non-trivial. Adding a system for indexing it made an immediate difference, but with close to a year of poor performance in the field while the old code was ripped out, updated, and tested; a better design up-front would have saved everyone a lot of headaches.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
As long as you can understand .02 cents/KB is NOT $.02/KB, you're ok. :laugh: :sigh:
"Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit..." "There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain..."
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Because a science degree will get you a better higher paying job? (At least in this 3rd-world country)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
Not when they see you lack the basic skills.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
-
Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
-
You think you've got it bad - my whole kitchen still smells like it. Seriously tempted to try a BBQ breakfast... :~
jgasm wrote:
because of my obsession with food...someone's mind is in the gutter.
Hey, i assure you, my mind is on high and noble matters. My rich and tangy sauce, for instance.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
Seriously tempted to try a BBQ breakfast...
You ought to. Its the bomb. We tried it once in college when we got paychecks. Totally worth the splurge. :cool:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
I don't think it's all that important, it depends on exactly what you're working on though. It's important in games nowadays with all the 3D stuff going on and it can be important in business software that deals with money, tax and so on. For a lot (probably most) of software development work it isn't really necessary though.