Mathematically-troubled Computer Scientist?
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
I am mathematically challenged as well - this has not stopped me from being a successful DBA and writing image comparison, voice recognition etc applications. I have worked with Cambridge University mathematics graduates(who have 1sts!) and had no difficulty understanding complex algorithms they were designing and also, at times, surprised them with brilliant ideas :-\ Read my signature. Don't give up and most importantly find a way to find enjoyment in your work/study. Good Luck Guy ;)
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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Shog9 wrote:
i had pretty much the same attitude: "i'll never use this, so why remember it?"
Well, the same thing here. I figured I'd never need it, came across the need for all that good calculus stuff, popped open my old calculus book and it all came back. Just like riding a bike, once learned how, it pretty much sticks for the most part :rolleyes:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Heh, then you must have a better grasp of it than i do. :-O
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
I do have a better grasp on certain aspects of calculus now, than when I was in college. Could have used what I figured out about it when taking the exams back then :sigh:
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
I too am not very good at math, but I learn what I need as I need it. I feel you have to want to learn.
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Oooh yeah, my current project is cryptography. However, by reading Schenier's "Applied Cryptography" I was able to understand the underlying math (Finite Fields and stuff) and cryptographic primitives. My problem is I can't relate other math subjects like Integral Calculus to programming. :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
I guess what I was really trying to say is that very seldom is the person who designs the user interface and the person who designs the library you use for a task going to be one in the same. Figure out what you are good at (or enjoy doing) and strive to be the best person on the planet in that subject.
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John C wrote:
Math is as close to irrelevant a skill for *most* programming these days as basket weaving.
*pauses, the willow switch in one hand poised to intersect the gap between stakes* Waaaitaminute...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
John C wrote: Math is as close to irrelevant a skill for *most* programming these days as basket weaving. *pauses, the willow switch in one hand poised to intersect the gap between stakes* Waaaitaminute...
He said "most," not "the highest paying" or the "most interesting" or even "the most challenging." Even if you use Laplace transforms in your work every day, most developers do not
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Shog9 wrote:
John C wrote: Math is as close to irrelevant a skill for *most* programming these days as basket weaving. *pauses, the willow switch in one hand poised to intersect the gap between stakes* Waaaitaminute...
He said "most," not "the highest paying" or the "most interesting" or even "the most challenging." Even if you use Laplace transforms in your work every day, most developers do not
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Even if you use Laplace transforms in your work every day, most developers do not
:) I don't, nor do i really think a basic familiarity with maths is all that much more important than, say, a basic understanding of electronics, basic familiarity with recent usability studies, or a working knowledge of English grammar. That said, i don't understand the attitude that it's wise to just ignore information that isn't immediately useful; memorizing formulas may not buy you much, but learning when Googling them will save your ass is another matter. And basket weaving is both relaxing and good wrist exercise... :-\
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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Simon Stevens wrote:
Maths skill is irrelevant.
so are english skills apparently.
Simon Stevens wrote:
Maths skill is irrelevant.
not really. if you do any kind of business programming you at least have to know the order of operations in and out. at the bare bones minimum. and probably understanding percentage will be very helpful. ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- "When I first saw it, I just thought that you really, really enjoyed programming in java." - Leslie Sanford
jgasm wrote:
Simon Stevens wrote: Maths skill is irrelevant. so are english skills apparently.
What's wrong with that?
Simon
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Sadly, I am one of those mathematically-troubled student whose taking-up Computer Science. I've barely passed all my math subjects (never failed one though) and I had a hard time in my Automata and Algorithms Complexity (Big o stuff) subjects. However, I aced all my programming subjects including Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. I also aced all software development subjects. How important are those (Automota, Algorithms...., Mathematics) subjects in a Software Developers life? Am I doomed? Am I the only one who is stupid enough to take Computer Science when I know for a fact that I'm stupid in Math? :^)
It is said that the most complex structures built by mankind are software systems. This is not generally appreciated because most people cannot see them. Maybe that's a good thing because if we saw them as buildings, we'd deem many of them unsafe.
As it´s already been said: it´s not whether math is hard to you or not, it´s what do you want to do with your career! If you want to be a computer scientist working in research, maths are a must, if you want to work developing software were performance matters, algorithm theory is must, but if you want to develop business software, web sites, etc, you can get by without most of it. I was in your position ten years ago. I made the wrong choice, :(( I studied Systems Engineering instead of Computer Science, because the former was less science-oriented. Now I work at a firm that produces a CAD application. I can not even dream of doing some of the work my coworkers do. I am confined to mantain/develop the front end (which is pretty complex, but nowhere as interesting as what my coworkers do) And even then my job is way more interesting than the rest of the positions I can apply to! (Because a full-blown OO desktop app with multiple synchronized views, undo-redo, etc. is more interesting than the typical business app with data forms) Cheers!
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Ian Uy wrote:
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms.
This would get you fired or put on code maintenance at a lot of places I've worked at. I'm not trying to be harsh but, why even bother with a science degree if you are going to ignore the science aspect.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
As far as the importance of math courses, as has already been said, it really depends on what type of programming you do. Right now I'm doing a mix of interfacing with hardware, writing standalone PC apps, and some SQL. Some of this requires some basic integrals and derivatives, some simple arithmetic, some virtually no math (save the occasionally i++ counter in a for loop :) ) I was fine at Calc when I took the classes, but that was 4 years ago...I never really used it again until after I graduated. Fortunately I have notes, textbooks, and forums to refer to ;P
Ian Uy wrote:
The logical thing that I would do is run both algorithms in the same machine and get the total running time then benchmark the two algorithms.
Chris Austin wrote:
This would get you fired or put on code maintenance at a lot of places I've worked at. I'm not trying to be harsh...
I would agree with Chris on this one. Algorithm complexity is extremely important when you're concerned about performance. <rant> This is just a general rant here, not intended to insult anyone, I just been needing to get this out. One of my pet peeves when it comes to programming is people who just hack out code without thinking it through. IMHO, any decent team of software engineers will spend a good bit of time designing their app before they start writing code. Code should not be written on the fly to see if it works. You should know it will do what you expect it to do when you write it. If you need to, write some pseudocode on paper or a whiteboard to work out the ideas. Draw a bunch of pretty pictures to illustrate how you expect different objects in your code to relate to each other. I've a good bit of experience with this already in my first 6 months on the job out of college, not to mention my Senior Design project. We spent a good month just designing our program structure before we wrote a single line of code. And then the first week of "coding" was actually just filling in a whole bunch of comments to outline what we'd be doing. The last month and a half was spent coding, testing, and debugging. We knew exactly what we were trying to do and how we wanted to do it once we started coding. OK I'm done now :-D Sorry for the random jabber there, I just had to get that out. </rant>