How to deal with trolls
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No - you told people to ignore "trolls" and that's the problem. The definition of what a troll actually is. Just because you think somebody's a troll or I think somebody is, doesn't make it so - it just makes us arrogant prigs. When the web developer refers to Peter in his posts, he's talking about me - as I'm the only one who's giving him a chance - and interestingly enough, the only one he engages with in any meaningful way. If you attack him, he attacks back. By being nice to him, you get decent back - so start forgiving a little, it goes a long, long way.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
If you attack him, he attacks back. By being nice to him, you get decent back
Perhaps I've missed something, but the initial premise was to IGNORE the (perceived) troll. Thus, you can go about your business if you don't perceive a troll and others can go about theirs if they do. An apparently equitable solution whereby all involved will be happy. Looking at the initial text from this post, I apparently didn't miss anything:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
No - you told people to ignore "trolls" and that's the problem.
There's no problem - I ignore countless posts - as do we all. In summation: "?"
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol -
No - you told people to ignore "trolls" and that's the problem. The definition of what a troll actually is. Just because you think somebody's a troll or I think somebody is, doesn't make it so - it just makes us arrogant prigs. When the web developer refers to Peter in his posts, he's talking about me - as I'm the only one who's giving him a chance - and interestingly enough, the only one he engages with in any meaningful way. If you attack him, he attacks back. By being nice to him, you get decent back - so start forgiving a little, it goes a long, long way.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
I think you're right, and Developer is a perfect example, though he in particular has gone way beyond a second chance. But there are exceptions, there are some who have prooven time and again to be utterly hopeless... Ilion. Need I say more?
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
If you attack him, he attacks back. By being nice to him, you get decent back
Perhaps I've missed something, but the initial premise was to IGNORE the (perceived) troll. Thus, you can go about your business if you don't perceive a troll and others can go about theirs if they do. An apparently equitable solution whereby all involved will be happy. Looking at the initial text from this post, I apparently didn't miss anything:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
No - you told people to ignore "trolls" and that's the problem.
There's no problem - I ignore countless posts - as do we all. In summation: "?"
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadolBalboos wrote:
Looking at the initial text from this post, I apparently didn't miss anything
John C wrote:
Anyone in future responding in any way at all to a known troll who has posted a trollish message or talking about trollish behaviour by a known troll by name in other messages should be considered the source of the problem and (I hope) publicly shamed by anyone who cares even slightly about this community of users.
I think you missed a whole paragragh.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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"Bate" is the wrong spelling, by the way. Unless you actually meant he lessens the effects of trolling, which is certainly a valid position given the topic.
Although true, it would undermine the comic content, just a tad.
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
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John - it seems that you have a problem with the view of what constitutes a troll. Remember, one persons troll is another persons misunderstood poster. Rather than us being pompous and arsey, perhaps it would be better to be positive with "trolls". The problem is that by treating a person as a troll, you encourage them to become a troll when perhaps they are struggling to get to grips with online etiquette, or language difficulties are part of the problem or they are young and immature and could, with a bit of help and patience, stop their trollish behaviour. Everybody deserves a chance in life, and I'd love to see how many people could honestly say they didn't cross the line into stupid behaviour when they were younger, or who haven't occasionally crossed the line into trollish behaviour themselves. Bottom line - it's easy for us to be pompous and arrogant, but perhaps we should get off our high-horse a little bit and stop pretending that we are some form of guardian of a mystic portal. It's an online forum, so let's stop pretending that our proclamations have any more substance than a fart in a bath.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Just remember Trolls have shorter attention span then kids with ADD. And the rest should be common sense.
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For those who value the First Amendment (Freedom of Speech) and feel guilty banning a troll, this post is for you. The core issue to ban Trolls is the respect of private property. If I own a website, I have the right to choose what content to appear on my website. Nobody has the right to force me to host articles (or posts) I dislike. Banning a troll is not a violation of his right of free speech; the troll still has the freedom to create his own website and post whatever he wishes. If CodeProject dislikes my postings, they have the right to ban me permanently from their website at their sole discretion. Of course, banning people for no apparent reasons is not the best business model to retain members. Likewise, screaming out "Fire!" in a crowded theater is a violation of property – the property of the theater owner. The same would be if I would cause disturbance in any other place, such as a recording studio, a shopping mall or a restaurant. The only person who may scream out “Fire” is the owner of the theater, however if there are customers watching a movie, then he violated his implicit contract of respecting silence while the movie is playing. At best, he could refund the movie ticket to its customers. For details see http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fifteen.asp[^] about the “Fire” in a theater. The article uses “Greater Good” theory for supporting free speech, however it is a dangerous slippery slope. The "Greater Good" theory is the basis behind Communism. Cheers, -- Daniel.
I also wanted to add my perspective to the "Free Speech" issue, though I've actually come up with something a bit more concise: Your right to free speech in no way places me under any obligation to retain what you have said. Add a bit about reserving the right to delete anything you want, and you have a fitting conclusion to a "Terms of Service" page!
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Balboos wrote:
Looking at the initial text from this post, I apparently didn't miss anything
John C wrote:
Anyone in future responding in any way at all to a known troll who has posted a trollish message or talking about trollish behaviour by a known troll by name in other messages should be considered the source of the problem and (I hope) publicly shamed by anyone who cares even slightly about this community of users.
I think you missed a whole paragragh.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
Nah - that's just the joking around part* - the lesson was to ignore the pests. But . . . at least I see why your comments took the direction they did. * Consider how quickly the group will tease suitable blunders and comments, such as we all make, one could almost interpret it as lovingly accepted if they're gently pounded (?).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol -
LOLing at the 'fart in a bath' line :laugh: Back on topic... I reckon that well-executed trolls have their part to play in any online forum. Sometimes it's good to see the kicks against the pricks.
It's turtles all the way down.
Darren M Jackson wrote:
'fart in a bath' line
F.Y.I.: There is a word for this:
FuntA person who farts in the bathtub and eats the bubbles. . . Thought you'd like to know."The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol -
Nah - that's just the joking around part* - the lesson was to ignore the pests. But . . . at least I see why your comments took the direction they did. * Consider how quickly the group will tease suitable blunders and comments, such as we all make, one could almost interpret it as lovingly accepted if they're gently pounded (?).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadolBalboos wrote:
the lesson was to ignore the pests
Right. I assumed that those that were disagreeing were doing so about being considered equally responsible just by trying to reform trolls. Which is a valid point too.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
it seems that you have a problem with the view of what constitutes a troll.
Really? Hmm..maybe in your parallel universe, not in this one. I suggest if you have the stomach for being utterly wrong you go back and read a few of my recent posts, in particular the one where I said it's getting like "Lord of the flies" around here with people ganging up and attacking other people for a mere hint of trolldom which I said is unwarranted and ugly. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else who is quick to attack for the slightest transgression. Frankly you're the one being "pompous and arsey" here, I'm suggesting that rather than engaging in a huge flame war against people who are perceived to be trolling we simply ignore them. How you came to the conclusion you did is utterly mystifying.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
John C wrote:
Frankly you're the one being "pompous and arsey" here, I'm suggesting that rather than engaging in a huge flame war against people who are perceived to be trolling we simply ignore them. How you came to the conclusion you did is utterly mystifying.
I was on the verge of coming to the same conclusion due to a certain hard evangelic tone I perceived original post...but I persevered and read the ENTIRE link. At least one of the sites I frequent makes this site look like my kid sister's teenage pajama parties as opposed to a Wild West dance hall, and trolls are an hourly occurrence. Almost as frequent is mistaking for a troll someone with a poor grasp of etiquette but who is willing to learn better manners. There, the boards are IM chat boards, so furious arguments develop very quickly. BUT, there is a way out: the Ignore button. So, when I encounter a troll or a flame war, after explaining why I can't tolerate particular behavior and receiving an unacceptable response, I tell the chat room I am adding them to my Ignore list, I add them, and if anyone asks me why I'm not responding to them I explain my reasoning and my response...most often, that person joins me in Ignorance :D As a result, my favorite chat room on that site is becoming almost, well, civil. The document you provided espouses a similar philosophy, and includes at least one section allowing for enough interaction with the troll-candidate to determine if, in fact, they are a troll. If that fact is demonstrated, THEN lead the campaign to ignore the troll. As you can see from my earlier comments, "My sentiments exactly" :D
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Darren M Jackson wrote:
'fart in a bath' line
F.Y.I.: There is a word for this:
FuntA person who farts in the bathtub and eats the bubbles. . . Thought you'd like to know."The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadolBalboos wrote:
Funt A person who farts in the bathtub and eats the bubbles. . Thought you'd like to know.
X| you were WRONG :laugh:
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Just remember Trolls have shorter attention span then kids with ADD. And the rest should be common sense.
Member 3938395 wrote:
Just remember Trolls have shorter attention span then kids with ADD. And the rest should be common sense.
I wish that were true, but some have a mania about it, as if they were addicted to conversational chaos. However, as long as they are not fed, they do go away...exactly as the original poster states.
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Troll baiting can be fun. I've always tried to play nice cop / bad cop. First bit of junk - err, are you sure? second - Come on! Get with the program! After that it's time to leave it to the pros, like yourself. I'd never try to bait YOU, you're too mean! :~
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
williamnw wrote:
Troll baiting can be fun. I've always tried to play nice cop / bad cop. First bit of junk - err, are you sure? second - Come on! Get with the program! After that it's time to leave it to the pros, like yourself. I'd never try to bait YOU, you're too mean!
The problem is, troll-baiting leaves you in danger of becoming a troll yourself.
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I fail to see anything wrong with caring about this community after being a contributing member of it for over 8 years now. My only aim in this is to cut down on the needless and pointless ganging up and attacking of perceived trolls, it reflects poorly on this site and brings it down to the level I can get on any crappy message board on the internet. If you think trolls need to be "scared off" and anything remotely positive or useful to this community can come of it, even after reading that post and digesting it and thinking about it then well..there's really nothing useful I can say at this point.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
John C wrote:
I fail to see anything wrong with caring about this community after being a contributing member of it for over 8 years now. My only aim in this is to cut down on the needless and pointless ganging up and attacking of perceived trolls, it reflects poorly on this site and brings it down to the level I can get on any crappy message board on the internet. If you think trolls need to be "scared off" and anything remotely positive or useful to this community can come of it, even after reading that post and digesting it and thinking about it then well..there's really nothing useful I can say at this point.
John, I think one of the reasons some are raising this sort of objection relates to why you and I are in agreement - both of us have been long-term members of online communities. What they think of as sites they visit occasionally, we think of as, well, our online "homes." If they buy into that point of view, suddenly they'll wonder if they have to wipe their feet before they come in :laugh:
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I agree with John Simmons. Some days, I can just let the trolls go by, and I don't bother. Other days, when I'm feeling all middle-aged and cranky, I feel the need to rip them a new one. If you're visualizing a big, scarred-up old shark floating through the water with the guppies, you've got the right idea.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
agree with John Simmons. Some days, I can just let the trolls go by, and I don't bother. Other days, when I'm feeling all middle-aged and cranky, I feel the need to rip them a new one. If you're visualizing a big, scarred-up old shark floating through the water with the guppies, you've got the right idea.
*sigh* I had a weaker moment with a particularly shallow thinker on this site just last week. Frankly, I wouldn't have bothered except he was insulting everyone who made a particular response to a particular question without putting forth any support for his own position...when I gently challenged him, his response reiterated the insult, and the example he provided to support his position was ill-thought and fell apart with simple analysis. I was a bit irritated, and was consequently rude in response. His reply was that he wasn't willing to spend time thinking it through, anyway. What do you say to that??? Nothing, was my conclusion, and was my reply.
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We hear this suggestion again and again, but as much as ONE TROLL can interrupt a board of hundreds, ONE FEEDER can keep the troll busy. So the suggested solution of ignoring is impractical - if fails as soon as one participant fails.
peterchen wrote:
We hear this suggestion again and again, but as much as ONE TROLL can interrupt a board of hundreds, ONE FEEDER can keep the troll busy. So the suggested solution of ignoring is impractical - if fails as soon as one participant fails.
Your criterion for failure is simply the criterion for a new change to the state of the chat. If someone feeds the troll, they themselves become a troll, at least that's how I read John C.'s document. Simply treat them as you treat the troll they are baiting, and the state of the chat will eventually return to Friendly.
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Darren M Jackson wrote:
'fart in a bath' line
F.Y.I.: There is a word for this:
FuntA person who farts in the bathtub and eats the bubbles. . . Thought you'd like to know."The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadolBalboos wrote:
Funt A person who farts in the bathtub and eats the bubbles.
Thanks. I'll bear that in mind. It's never nice to be lost for words during such occasions.
It's turtles all the way down.
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Trolls have been dealt with effectively in message boards for decades but it appears that many of you are unaware of how to deal with them and the psychology behind what they do. This article sums up how to deal with trolls very nicely, if, after reading this, you disagree in any way with the concept of ignorning a trollish post or indeed any post you don't want to see more of, please respond here in this thread and explain why so we can publicly humilate you and slap you in the virtual face: http://web.archive.org/web/20060428091222/http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm[^] Anyone in future responding in any way at all to a known troll who has posted a trollish message or talking about trollish behaviour by a known troll by name in other messages should be considered the source of the problem and (I hope) publicly shamed by anyone who cares even slightly about this community of users.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
Good article with obnoxious web design.
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Trolls have been dealt with effectively in message boards for decades but it appears that many of you are unaware of how to deal with them and the psychology behind what they do. This article sums up how to deal with trolls very nicely, if, after reading this, you disagree in any way with the concept of ignorning a trollish post or indeed any post you don't want to see more of, please respond here in this thread and explain why so we can publicly humilate you and slap you in the virtual face: http://web.archive.org/web/20060428091222/http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm[^] Anyone in future responding in any way at all to a known troll who has posted a trollish message or talking about trollish behaviour by a known troll by name in other messages should be considered the source of the problem and (I hope) publicly shamed by anyone who cares even slightly about this community of users.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson