Why do people tells that IE sucks? [modified]
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I could start a well organised list on this topic :)
- The fundamental reason I don't like IE is because of Microsoft's inobligation to improve it - they're at version 8 and it has been going for over 10 years, and they still haven't improved the fundamental problems. How can they expect to win customers over if they don't listen to their feedback, or don't do anything about it.
- It really is the slowest mainstream browser - I've seen some of the benchmarks and for me it's just a pain to use; the UI is slow and it takes about 30 seconds on startup to be able to actually do anything.
- My black sheep comment (if that's what you were referring to) is mainly due to IE's standards incompliance. When sun Netscape created JavaScript years ago, Microsoft retalliated with their version, called JScript - although similar to JavaScript, it has plagued web developers ever since it's creation, and means that code to do trivial tasks has to be tailored to be compatible with IE, with some functions doing the same thing but being called different things. Also, they are starting to mess with the CSS standards, as seen with the filters they have introduced, which are only IE-compatible.
- Every new addition they seem to add an "excellent" new feature - for example, tabs. Tabs have been around for ages, way before Microsoft decided to bring them into IE, yet they make it out to be an excellent new feature that everyone raves about.
- Security. The irony with MS security is that their software has been criticised for it's poor security, but now they are on the other side of the spectrum, where their security enhancements just make visiting web pages annoying.
- The Internet Options dialog. I've never been able to figure this mass of jumbled controls out, especially the Advanced tab. It's that whole Microsoft ideology of shoving all the settings into one area and letting the user find the settings they want to change, even if it takes 10 minutes, with having no scale of advance or grouping.
Does that help answer your question? Regards, --Perspx
Don't trust a computer you can't throw out a window
-- Steve Wozniak
i don't use IE because there is something much better. i like the FF because of the extensions, when it comes to the web development, for sure i will chose FF, the firebug is great, the cashing and validating extensions..... simply because there is something better
When you get mad...THINK twice that the only advice Tamimi - Code
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Cause in general people love to hate Microsoft
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming)I don't hate Microsoft but I don't think they produce the best products in every category. Browsers is one of them. IMO they had the best browser from IE4 to IE6, i.e., up to 2001. But now they don't. I wouldn't really say that IE7 sucks, just that it falls short in a number of areas. But for most end users these areas are unimportant.
Kevin
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i don't use IE because there is something much better. i like the FF because of the extensions, when it comes to the web development, for sure i will chose FF, the firebug is great, the cashing and validating extensions..... simply because there is something better
When you get mad...THINK twice that the only advice Tamimi - Code
Tamimi - Code wrote:
i don't use IE because there is something much better.
Summed up in one sentence. :)
Kevin
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I could start a well organised list on this topic :)
- The fundamental reason I don't like IE is because of Microsoft's inobligation to improve it - they're at version 8 and it has been going for over 10 years, and they still haven't improved the fundamental problems. How can they expect to win customers over if they don't listen to their feedback, or don't do anything about it.
- It really is the slowest mainstream browser - I've seen some of the benchmarks and for me it's just a pain to use; the UI is slow and it takes about 30 seconds on startup to be able to actually do anything.
- My black sheep comment (if that's what you were referring to) is mainly due to IE's standards incompliance. When sun Netscape created JavaScript years ago, Microsoft retalliated with their version, called JScript - although similar to JavaScript, it has plagued web developers ever since it's creation, and means that code to do trivial tasks has to be tailored to be compatible with IE, with some functions doing the same thing but being called different things. Also, they are starting to mess with the CSS standards, as seen with the filters they have introduced, which are only IE-compatible.
- Every new addition they seem to add an "excellent" new feature - for example, tabs. Tabs have been around for ages, way before Microsoft decided to bring them into IE, yet they make it out to be an excellent new feature that everyone raves about.
- Security. The irony with MS security is that their software has been criticised for it's poor security, but now they are on the other side of the spectrum, where their security enhancements just make visiting web pages annoying.
- The Internet Options dialog. I've never been able to figure this mass of jumbled controls out, especially the Advanced tab. It's that whole Microsoft ideology of shoving all the settings into one area and letting the user find the settings they want to change, even if it takes 10 minutes, with having no scale of advance or grouping.
Does that help answer your question? Regards, --Perspx
Don't trust a computer you can't throw out a window
-- Steve Wozniak
Perspx wrote:
it takes about 30 seconds on startup
If that's true on your machine, you need to sort your machine out. I've never heard that from anyone else. Your machine is at fault there, not IE.
Perspx wrote:
Tabs have been around for ages, way before Microsoft decided to bring them into IE, yet they make it out to be an excellent new feature that everyone raves about.
You're confusing the application itelf with the marketing of the application. They are completely different.
Perspx wrote:
where their security enhancements just make visiting web pages annoying.
Example?
Perspx wrote:
the filters they have introduced, which are only IE-compatible.
Did you complain when Netscape introduced the then non-standard
tabletag? The idea that all innovation has to come from a standards body is ludicrous. -
Perspx wrote:
it takes about 30 seconds on startup
If that's true on your machine, you need to sort your machine out. I've never heard that from anyone else. Your machine is at fault there, not IE.
Perspx wrote:
Tabs have been around for ages, way before Microsoft decided to bring them into IE, yet they make it out to be an excellent new feature that everyone raves about.
You're confusing the application itelf with the marketing of the application. They are completely different.
Perspx wrote:
where their security enhancements just make visiting web pages annoying.
Example?
Perspx wrote:
the filters they have introduced, which are only IE-compatible.
Did you complain when Netscape introduced the then non-standard
tabletag? The idea that all innovation has to come from a standards body is ludicrous.Graham Bradshaw wrote:
If that's true on your machine, you need to sort your machine out. I've never heard that from anyone else. Your machine is at fault there, not IE.
That was a slight exaggeration - my point is that it is slow to start up, much more so than any other web browsers I have used, which is IE's fault. The UI is also very unresponsive in many occasions.
Graham Bradshaw wrote:
Example?
The bars that pop up when you want to use an ActiveX control on the page, or run bits of JavaScript. The procedures in place for downloading files can also be rather annoying too - MS are trying to protect the user but their methods for doing so can be somewhat ridiculous.
Graham Bradshaw wrote:
The idea that all innovation has to come from a standards body is ludicrous.
I'm not saying that - it just becomes tedious when you need to use features which aren't part of a standard, as that compromises compatibility on other browsers. IE acts like some kind of godly-creature, and when new features or standards are introduced, web developers have to accomodate this because IE has the dominant market share. Regards, --Perspx
Don't trust a computer you can't throw out a window
-- Steve Wozniak
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OK, good to know, and from my complete ignorance on this field, are the W3C standards OK, I mean are they richer or poorer than what IE offers, if they are richer, then it is stupid from the point of Microsoft to reinvent the wheel, but if they are poorer, then Microsoft is on the good path, isn't it? I understand what you say about the standard that they set due to the "mere existence", but once again, they are in a dominant position (all of us know that), and this is something difficult to discuss about, as as an enterprise Microsoft must try to dominate the market, but as users we won't benefit of that domain... Anyway, your answer is great, thank you. A good point.
It doesn't matter whether they are OK or not, browsers other than IE try follow the standard so setting a new (and crappy) standard does not help anyone. It just means that web developers have to go through a lot of pain to make a website look OK on more than one browser at the same time and has no positive side whatsoever. Even if Microsoft would make a "richer" standard, it would still not be OK. It is not Microsoft's job to do that, and they should stay out of it.
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
well I've personally found it pretty difficult to cope with IE from the development point of view. It has its own set of standards and doesn't give any thing like Firebug. So Developers obviously feel a lot more comfortable with FF rather than IE. Just two days ago I was watching a video about the 'cool new' features of IE 8 for developers. From their advertisements it looks as if it's gonna give a good experience to the web developers, but then again: You always need to be cynical about advertisements. Now they're bringing in even more changes in IE-8. The only good thing I see so far is it ability to change it's mode with the help of a meta tag. (I sure do hope it would work out as they're telling tough :laugh: ) With all said and done, I really think the need for standardizing the rendering behavior of all the many browsers is getting bigger and bigger as the time goes on. Let's hope for the best. :rose:
Rocky My Blog
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
In my case it's partly lack of standards compliance and partly the UI. I absolutely loathe what they did to the IE7...about the only they got right was to add tabs (and even that was half baked).
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
Typically people use "Tech-X sucks" to gain acceptance in a new crowd. For example I could go to slashdot and say "IE sucks" and immediately be accepted as a wise and geeky new guy. Or here on CP I could say "Java sucks" or start a new petition to ban "The web developer" and immediately be one of the gang. In general (probably doesn't cover 100% of scenarios) if someone says "sucks" without following it up with a "because" it would fall into the above scenarios :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
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Tamimi - Code wrote:
i don't use IE because there is something much better.
Summed up in one sentence. :)
Kevin
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i use IE because i dont need anything better :)
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)I don't use IE because I need something better. :)
Kevin
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
I don't like the lack of tabs in 6 and the interface in 7. Plus, for whatever reason IE crashes on me after a few minutes. I suspect it's an add-on since my wife and kids have fewer problems with their installations. I use Firefox 99% of the time, so I haven't bothered to figure out the problem. On the other hand, IE almost never fails to open a web site, while Firefox sometimes just won't do it. Then there's the embedded video issue with Firefox. (And IE seems to be faster with Codeproject. Firefox often just stalls.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
Depends on who you're talking to, and what you're talking about. For me, most of it boils down to rot: too many issues that were solved years ago by other browsers still afflict the huge installed base of IE6/7 users. There was a time when i was enthusiastic about IE: V6 was a solid browser for its time. Unfortunately, that time ended quite a while back. IE7 always feels like a half-finished rush-job: shades of Netscape 6. There's some hope that IE8 will finally put IE back in the game, but i'm holding off on getting excited about it 'till we get closer to release; MS betas have a bad tendency to differ significantly from the final release.
Joan Murt wrote:
I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always
Plenty of folks perfectly happy with their old VW Beetles. I wouldn't recommend one though. Times change, old designs start to suck.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
It's not so much that that it doesn't follow the W3C standards, it doesn't follow it's own. There are too many cases where if you have this element inside that element then there are an extra 6 phantom pixels that you have to deal with. The standards define a set of nested boxes that are supposed to behave a specific way depending on the relationships between them. With IE, those relationships are different and they are content dependent in a very strange way on top of that. On top of that, the IE "standard" isn't published anywhere so you have to use known IE "hacks" to get non-table based layouts to work correctly. Table based layout continues to work fine in every browser, but it is difficult to read and maintain.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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It doesn't matter whether they are OK or not, browsers other than IE try follow the standard so setting a new (and crappy) standard does not help anyone. It just means that web developers have to go through a lot of pain to make a website look OK on more than one browser at the same time and has no positive side whatsoever. Even if Microsoft would make a "richer" standard, it would still not be OK. It is not Microsoft's job to do that, and they should stay out of it.
harold aptroot wrote:
more than one browser
These standards you talk about were determined, in many cases, after IE had already created a browser experience well in advance of what was being provided by Netscape or envisioned by W3C.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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As in the topic, I'm just curious, (not pretending to start a flame war nor similar) I would like to know why, as every now and then I can see how everybody asks separated questions about that, could we conciliate all the reasons in one thread? I've been using it as my default browser (just because it came with the OS) and it has worked for me perfectly always (I only have seen one bug that makes a myriad of tabs to continue appearing even if you try to close them). So what I was asking: why it is the black sheep, why it is not working? and please avoid answers that are mere Microsoft bashing, let's be a little bit serious... (only a little please). ;) PS: I know there are several web pages out there with a lot of information on that, but they seem adverts of the other browsers, so they are not very trustworthy from my point of view... I would love to get the CPians point of view on that. As always thank you in advance. EDIT FROM HERE--> OK, I'll post a new topic resuming why do people tells that IE sucks...
[www.tamelectromecanica.com][www.tam.cat]
modified on Monday, September 15, 2008 5:14 AM
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It doesn't matter whether they are OK or not, browsers other than IE try follow the standard so setting a new (and crappy) standard does not help anyone. It just means that web developers have to go through a lot of pain to make a website look OK on more than one browser at the same time and has no positive side whatsoever. Even if Microsoft would make a "richer" standard, it would still not be OK. It is not Microsoft's job to do that, and they should stay out of it.
harold aptroot wrote:
Even if Microsoft would make a "richer" standard, it would still not be OK. It is not Microsoft's job to do that, and they should stay out of it.
Well, I guess it depends, it would be OK if it is a better approach... (and I'm not suggesting that it is a better approach) this is called progress... isn't it? We could discuss if the right way is to present the new option through the W3C association or not, but as an enterprise that must make money and that must maintain the "shine" of a tech company (I know, I know...) it is important to present newness in the name of themselves... PS: you say that it is crappy, so I suppose that what I've said is at least not true...
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i don't use IE because there is something much better. i like the FF because of the extensions, when it comes to the web development, for sure i will chose FF, the firebug is great, the cashing and validating extensions..... simply because there is something better
When you get mad...THINK twice that the only advice Tamimi - Code
One of the good answers here! It seems that there are options that are not available in the IE software... Thank you for your feedback...
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What a simple question: because it crashes more than all of the other apps put together.
Not for me...