code aesthetics
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Yes code should look good. i.e. be well and consistently laid out. Mostly so it can be read and therefore understood and therefore maintained by others. I try to follow some basic rules although I won't bow to the 40 column zealots in these days of wide screens and dual monitors. I've been writing at least 80 column code since 1985 and I'll go on doing so until my code is required to be good for sending back in time to be used in the 1970s. :) BTW Anyone who thinks they're hardcore and don't need well laid out code to be able to understand it should have a look at the C++ standard library headers e.g . An object lesson in how not to layout code if ever I've seen one. Considering this stuff is supposed to be 'standard' it's an utter disaster that this example is put in front of people trying to learn to do C++ properly. Elsewhere in library 6 class and 3000 lines of code in one header means someone needs a std::slap< hard, hand< right >, promptly< second_tenths > >( 4 ); Even proper formatting isn't going to make a file like that readable.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
No I like code like this:
int i= 0;
while (i < 100) { if (i%2) == 0 {
Console.WriteLine(i); Method1(); } }Pros: 1. The code compiles and runs correctly 2. It's difficult for others to understand 3. Debugging is also difficult as sometimes the debugger gets confused. No need to buy an obfuscator. 4. Tests pass 5. Company makes millions 6. Any other programmer debugging my code will feel a sense of achievement if he fixes something.
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. - Martin Fowler
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Ooooooo - that strikes a nerve with ME alright. I am a column nazi. People. Can't we at least agree that code shouldn't be wider than 120 columns? (I prefer a width of 80 myself). And for GOD'S SAKE why won't some of you indent your code????? I don't care if it's 3 spaces or 4 or a tab or what, but PLEEEASE! I'm BEGGING YOUuuuuuuu......... Why? Why can't you just keep it on one screen and indent? Is the reason because it takes time to write it that way? (once) And it's just as easy for YOU to read it that way? (80 times) Whyyyyyyy??? I really wanna know...
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No I like code like this:
int i= 0;
while (i < 100) { if (i%2) == 0 {
Console.WriteLine(i); Method1(); } }Pros: 1. The code compiles and runs correctly 2. It's difficult for others to understand 3. Debugging is also difficult as sometimes the debugger gets confused. No need to buy an obfuscator. 4. Tests pass 5. Company makes millions 6. Any other programmer debugging my code will feel a sense of achievement if he fixes something.
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. - Martin Fowler
You should really expand this concept, and implement unnecessary casting where possible. :rolleyes:
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
I agree: even if I'm hacking something out I have no intentions of putting into production, I almost always ensure proper formatting/structure. Hell, I'll even put comments in, thinking if I do end-up keeping this around, I'll want notes as to why I created it, what it was for and how it works. I think this kind of mentality comes more from experience, than anything else. I know that I didn't used to take this kind of approach, and I learned, a good while back, taking the time upfront to do this 'extra' work, almost always pays off in the long run.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTLAgreed. I tended to be a bit sloppy when in school, dealing with someone elses sloppy code when I got my job cured me of that real quick.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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No I like code like this:
int i= 0;
while (i < 100) { if (i%2) == 0 {
Console.WriteLine(i); Method1(); } }Pros: 1. The code compiles and runs correctly 2. It's difficult for others to understand 3. Debugging is also difficult as sometimes the debugger gets confused. No need to buy an obfuscator. 4. Tests pass 5. Company makes millions 6. Any other programmer debugging my code will feel a sense of achievement if he fixes something.
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. - Martin Fowler
Ok. That's hilarious. Seriously. I was rollin'... But that's not funny.
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Absolutely agree or it would be like writing a book with disregard to pagination, margins, paragraphs and chapters. In the end, source code is the product and a product should look professional.
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No I like code like this:
int i= 0;
while (i < 100) { if (i%2) == 0 {
Console.WriteLine(i); Method1(); } }Pros: 1. The code compiles and runs correctly 2. It's difficult for others to understand 3. Debugging is also difficult as sometimes the debugger gets confused. No need to buy an obfuscator. 4. Tests pass 5. Company makes millions 6. Any other programmer debugging my code will feel a sense of achievement if he fixes something.
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. - Martin Fowler
I like the dichotomy between your post and your sig
Graham Librarians rule, Ook!
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Ooooooo - that strikes a nerve with ME alright. I am a column nazi. People. Can't we at least agree that code shouldn't be wider than 120 columns? (I prefer a width of 80 myself). And for GOD'S SAKE why won't some of you indent your code????? I don't care if it's 3 spaces or 4 or a tab or what, but PLEEEASE! I'm BEGGING YOUuuuuuuu......... Why? Why can't you just keep it on one screen and indent? Is the reason because it takes time to write it that way? (once) And it's just as easy for YOU to read it that way? (80 times) Whyyyyyyy??? I really wanna know...
Steve Hazel wrote:
(I prefer a width of 80 myself).
I'm guessing you either don't indent much, or have really short function and variable names.
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
What I see is that every programmer has their own way of doing "good formatting" we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( :rolleyes: ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable. We finally agreed on a format through a document forced into the chain, but no one will enforce it, so we still have the same status quo. I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care. A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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No I like code like this:
int i= 0;
while (i < 100) { if (i%2) == 0 {
Console.WriteLine(i); Method1(); } }Pros: 1. The code compiles and runs correctly 2. It's difficult for others to understand 3. Debugging is also difficult as sometimes the debugger gets confused. No need to buy an obfuscator. 4. Tests pass 5. Company makes millions 6. Any other programmer debugging my code will feel a sense of achievement if he fixes something.
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. - Martin Fowler
I like the way you think :) However, may I suggest a small improvement in efficiency? I have found that by placing as much code as possible on a single line I save time - not having to press the ENTER key! I think you have been extravagent using 4 lines for this code sample .... ;)
Ali
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
It's a must. I like to be able to squint at code and see pretty patterns in the text, which is as near as dammit impossible if due care and attention has not been taken by the monkey bashing the keys (or if it's written in Perl :) ).
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
Absolutely! There are tons of benefits to having and following a consistent style.
Marc Clifton wrote:
yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right?
Right. To me, code beautifiers defeat the purpose of having a code style/standard, which is that it should be simple enough for your programmers to internalize so they just automatically follow the standard which will help improve the quality of the code. Beautifying it "after the fact" doesn't achieve this.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
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Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
What I see is that every programmer has their own way of doing "good formatting" we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( :rolleyes: ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable. We finally agreed on a format through a document forced into the chain, but no one will enforce it, so we still have the same status quo. I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care. A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I try to do the same, but isn't this sort of relative, what looks good for one programmer may look like crap for another. Of course some rules are very basic (like not letting code be longer then the width of a normal screen) and should always be followed (I think)
If everyone is working for the same company they should all be following the same standard. This alleviates (mostly) the problem of relativity. Of course, getting everyone to agree and follow the standard is a completely different problem.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
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You should really expand this concept, and implement unnecessary casting where possible. :rolleyes:
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
What I see is that every programmer has their own way of doing "good formatting" we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( :rolleyes: ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable. We finally agreed on a format through a document forced into the chain, but no one will enforce it, so we still have the same status quo. I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care. A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
El Corazon wrote:
we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable
You spent way too long debating it then. Best rule of thumb (especially if management has bought in to the concept of a standard and is willing to enforce it somehow) is to let it argue out for an hour or two, suggest some compromises (for the tab size issue, 3 generally works well) and if no one can still agree, make it a mandate.
El Corazon wrote:
I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care.
The problem with that is you then loose the psychological aspects of writing "clean" code: The developer feels better about their skills because the code is easier to understand, works better the first time out, etc., so they want to take more ownership of the code. The more ownership they take, the less likely they will be to introduce new bugs in that code. Eventually it becomes a type of self fulfilling prophecy.
El Corazon wrote:
A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format.
Absolutely, but that isn't always possible depending on the language.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
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C# is easy, delete the last curly brace in the file, and just create it again. Voila, code formatted :)
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
C# is easy, delete the last curly brace in the file, and just create it again. Voila, code formatted
C++ is easy, with astyle integrated into your IDE, just type your code and it is formatted. ;P you don't even have to delete your last curly brace. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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El Corazon wrote:
we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable
You spent way too long debating it then. Best rule of thumb (especially if management has bought in to the concept of a standard and is willing to enforce it somehow) is to let it argue out for an hour or two, suggest some compromises (for the tab size issue, 3 generally works well) and if no one can still agree, make it a mandate.
El Corazon wrote:
I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care.
The problem with that is you then loose the psychological aspects of writing "clean" code: The developer feels better about their skills because the code is easier to understand, works better the first time out, etc., so they want to take more ownership of the code. The more ownership they take, the less likely they will be to introduce new bugs in that code. Eventually it becomes a type of self fulfilling prophecy.
El Corazon wrote:
A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format.
Absolutely, but that isn't always possible depending on the language.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
Scott Dorman wrote:
You spent way too long debating it then.
That is obvious from all of our meetings. Without demands from above, diverging interests, fears, or misconseptions drive the individuals in different directions. Our previous meeting before the last one was 4 hours... this last one was 6 hours. I imagine the next one will be all day. After that we might have to pay overtime for meetings.... obviously something is wrong when this happens. :) Thus lunar illumination. ;) ;) with the intent on expansion to permanent in intent. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Standards There should be a convention that is followed by the development group. That standard should be enforced in the same spirit as dress code or curfew. It's a standard. Now if it's code you inherited from some developer you don't know and it's ugly and it sucks. I'm sorry about that. I must have let that slip out somewhere. :-\