code aesthetics
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Yes, I think Marc was talking generally. I was directly addressing your comment of "what looks good for one programmer may look like crap for another" which I took in the context of everyone working together in a company.
Tom deketelaere wrote:
And yes getting everyone to agree is not always easy, fortunatly for me I was at the startup of the .NET department in my company (and was the only one in it for 8 months) so I got to do what I want (and make the company standard)
Lucky you...sometimes the best way to create a standard. :)
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
Scott Dorman wrote:
I took in the context of everyone working together in a company.
I was actually more thinking about code placed here but the same can go for people in the same company altough that's somewhat easyer to fix ;P
Scott Dorman wrote:
Lucky you...sometimes the best way to create a standard.
Yeah well the company did have a "senior" programmer at first who was going to 'lead' the department but he turned out to be a very big mistake, so my boss fired him and well I got stuck doing the standerd (with only 1year experiance, but so far I'v been doing well (I think ;P )) and cleaning up his mess, and he left quite a mess behind, still feel the effects now olmost 1 year later
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Scott Dorman wrote:
I took in the context of everyone working together in a company.
I was actually more thinking about code placed here but the same can go for people in the same company altough that's somewhat easyer to fix ;P
Scott Dorman wrote:
Lucky you...sometimes the best way to create a standard.
Yeah well the company did have a "senior" programmer at first who was going to 'lead' the department but he turned out to be a very big mistake, so my boss fired him and well I got stuck doing the standerd (with only 1year experiance, but so far I'v been doing well (I think ;P )) and cleaning up his mess, and he left quite a mess behind, still feel the effects now olmost 1 year later
Tom deketelaere wrote:
was actually more thinking about code placed here
Yes, the same would apply to code here; and it's certainly a larger problem here due to the size and scope of the community.
Tom deketelaere wrote:
Yeah well the company did have a "senior" programmer at first who was going to 'lead' the department but he turned out to be a very big mistake, so my boss fired him and well I got stuck doing the standerd (with only 1year experiance, but so far I'v been doing well (I think )) and cleaning up his mess, and he left quite a mess behind, still feel the effects now olmost 1 year later
You will probabbly be feeling the effects for a long time. That's almost always a difficult situation to find oneself in, but it sounds like it's working out for you. Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
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Steve Hazel wrote:
(I prefer a width of 80 myself).
I'm guessing you either don't indent much, or have really short function and variable names.
well, i indent 3 spaces and try to keep variable names short yet still meaningful.
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120 columns? Are you still stuck on a CRT?
Todd Smith
Not a crt, but often crappy monitors at the job. When I'm readin code I don't want to have to scroll the freakin screen left n right.
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It must suck to be you! :omg:
With the code base I'm starin' at, it definitely does suck to be me - no joke. And it'll suck for the guy after me. And the next guy. And the... You get the idea... Well, except for those "few" modules that break in prod that I'm forced to touch.
modified on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:37 PM
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Fortunately, most of the programmers I meet feel the way you do. But you're missing an important point: there are some people who just don't care - to them it's a job, and a clean compile is the best you can expect from them.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
there are some people who just don't care - to them it's a job, and a clean compile is the best you can expect from them.
For some coders, a clean compile is shippable code.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Tom deketelaere wrote:
was actually more thinking about code placed here
Yes, the same would apply to code here; and it's certainly a larger problem here due to the size and scope of the community.
Tom deketelaere wrote:
Yeah well the company did have a "senior" programmer at first who was going to 'lead' the department but he turned out to be a very big mistake, so my boss fired him and well I got stuck doing the standerd (with only 1year experiance, but so far I'v been doing well (I think )) and cleaning up his mess, and he left quite a mess behind, still feel the effects now olmost 1 year later
You will probabbly be feeling the effects for a long time. That's almost always a difficult situation to find oneself in, but it sounds like it's working out for you. Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
Well, I am heading up a committee of 3 that is going to establish a new standard for future development in our company. Over more than 30 years in the development arena I've amassed quite a bit of my own ideas about what makes for a good standard. Also knowing that just because I think a particular guideline is good doesn't necessarily mean it really is, I'd like to ask you if you could point me in the direction of what you would consider some decent coding standard documents...
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I usually take a 120-140 rule (have to admit I'm used to 21" or 24" screen) normal screen these days is resolution 1280*1024, at least that's what I consider to be normal (especially for developers) But like I said I kind off have the handicap that I never work with screen beneath 21" anymore
Do any of your developers ever find there to be a need to print sections of code? That is still a pretty good lowest common denominator (80 cols for readability on an 8.5 x 11 page) which makes me hesitate to accept anything greater than 80 columns width in the code.
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
I totally agree. I'm not fanatical but like to write and read code that is neatly formatted. Easier to read and follow. My biggest pet peeve is no comments. The app I'm supporting at the moment, although very well written is extremely sophisticated and comments are very very rare, and of course no docs. Though I do not comment every line of code I write I do comment in places where it makes sense. Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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Ugly as sin - that's the way. Why should other people be able to read your code? Why they'll totally fail to appreciate your genius. Remember, if only you can understand your code then others will naturally think you're a gifted genius - granted one who's unable to relate to others, but tortured genius nonetheless.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
if only you can understand your code then others will naturally think you're a gifted genius
There must be a phrase for when I can't understand my own code 7 years later. Maybe "gifted jerking off genius" since it's definitely a one-man show. Marc
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Fortunately, most of the programmers I meet feel the way you do. But you're missing an important point: there are some people who just don't care - to them it's a job, and a clean compile is the best you can expect from them.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
to them it's a job, and a clean compile is the best you can expect from them.
That pretty much sums it up. Sadly, a clean compile doesn't mean a bug free execution. "Your code looks like shit, and by the way, I can spot 5 logic errors just by looking at the code". That's what I seem to be saying a lot lately. :sigh: Marc
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Do not go against Visual Studio's automatic formatting. That's one rule I always follow. :)
So the creationist says: Everything must have a designer. God designed everything. I say: Why is God the only exception? Why not make the "designs" (like man) exceptions and make God a creation of man?
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Well, I am heading up a committee of 3 that is going to establish a new standard for future development in our company. Over more than 30 years in the development arena I've amassed quite a bit of my own ideas about what makes for a good standard. Also knowing that just because I think a particular guideline is good doesn't necessarily mean it really is, I'd like to ask you if you could point me in the direction of what you would consider some decent coding standard documents...
geoffs wrote:
knowing that just because I think a particular guideline is good doesn't necessarily mean it really is
That's an excellent start. It's important that your standards are a result of quality input from the rest of the team and not designed in a vacuum.
geoffs wrote:
point me in the direction of what you would consider some decent coding standard documents...
I can, but a lot of it depends on your chosen programming language. I really like the Framework Design Guidelines book. It is focused on .NET and designing public facing APIs but at least 90% of the guidelines specified apply to any language. The other one (although more for a really solid reference and background information) is the Ada 95 Quality and Style Guide. (If you can't find it, email me directly from CP and I can email it to you.) From one of my talks on this: What is a code standard?
- Encompasses all aspects of code construction
- Designed to improve program adaptation and maintenance
- Do not form an inflexible set of standards
- Consistent
- Is not “one size fits all” – different for different languages
- Defines the “best practices” for writing code for your development group
- Must adapt to changes in technology and language
What is a code standard?
- Source Code Presentation (Code Formatting)
- Readability
- Program Structure
- Programming Practices
- Concurrency
- Portability/Interoperability
- Reusability
- Performance
- Globalization
The rest of the slide deck (it's short but a lot of the slides have speaker notes) is available on my blog if you want to browse through it. Also, if you're ever in the Florida area (or any of the east coast southern states) I present at a lot of the code camps and usually have a round-table discussion on this topic.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buc
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Well, I am heading up a committee of 3 that is going to establish a new standard for future development in our company. Over more than 30 years in the development arena I've amassed quite a bit of my own ideas about what makes for a good standard. Also knowing that just because I think a particular guideline is good doesn't necessarily mean it really is, I'd like to ask you if you could point me in the direction of what you would consider some decent coding standard documents...
If I may I add my 2c I would normally strongly encourage to have all personnel involved in development familiarised with Microsoft .NET Framework Design Guidelines. These guidelines set out naming conventions, file organisation and many other rules making the code readable and easy to maintain. There are number of resources worth reading, such as follows: 1. published by Brad Adams (founding member of both the Common Language Runtime, and .NET Framework teams) a) Microsoft Internal Coding Guidelines[^] - a good start and something I do follow myself. b) plenty of other guidelines[^] worth checking out in a free time 2. Design Guidelines for Class Library Developers on MSDN[^] 3. every now and then Krzysztof Cwalina's blog[^] is a good read too (at least it used to be) Secondly I would strongly encourage the code documentation. Whilst I do perfectly understand that documenting the code has been the bane of all programmers since the day 1 (and I also suffer from it), I believe it is imperative to write documentation. The main rule - explain NOT WHAT the code does but WHY you've written it this way. Again I would strongly encourage to make a habit of documenting (at least) all publicly exposed objects (types, classes, methods, properties etc) using XML documentation. A good start: here[^] and here[^] Because I work with .NET all of the above mainly applies to .NET stuff, yet it could still make sense for those working with other languages/technologies.
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Do any of your developers ever find there to be a need to print sections of code? That is still a pretty good lowest common denominator (80 cols for readability on an 8.5 x 11 page) which makes me hesitate to accept anything greater than 80 columns width in the code.
We don't print much code (everything is sent by email internaly and such means) but I guess you are right if that happens it isn't as readable anymore. (hadn't given it much thought untill you mentioned it, since it olmost never happens here) I'll keep that in mind and might reduce the number of cols
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Tom deketelaere wrote:
was actually more thinking about code placed here
Yes, the same would apply to code here; and it's certainly a larger problem here due to the size and scope of the community.
Tom deketelaere wrote:
Yeah well the company did have a "senior" programmer at first who was going to 'lead' the department but he turned out to be a very big mistake, so my boss fired him and well I got stuck doing the standerd (with only 1year experiance, but so far I'v been doing well (I think )) and cleaning up his mess, and he left quite a mess behind, still feel the effects now olmost 1 year later
You will probabbly be feeling the effects for a long time. That's almost always a difficult situation to find oneself in, but it sounds like it's working out for you. Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
Scott Dorman wrote:
You will probabbly be feeling the effects for a long time.
Well I'v managed to reduce it to one programme now that doens't need much maintenance or altering, but whenever it does I end up with headache's from hell.
Scott Dorman wrote:
Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
I'm now in the process of doing the same for a client of us so I guess I'm heading the same direction as you, but I'm shure I'm just a noob in comparison ;P
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
The ultimate goal is readable, understandable code with few surprises[^]. Everything in that direction helps. Clean, consistent formatting trains the subconcious to provide additional information without mental effort*: indented == new scope, lowercase = local, gets destroyed when leaving block, and so on. Working on a consistent codebase for longer time likely "looks good" / "looks bad" will be injected when looking at a block of code. That might also explain why people get worked up so much about a specific coding convention: reading another one throws them off their guard. Belowdeck, all "danger!" - signs are flashing, while the captain has to reassure the crew that "waves" are indeed a normal appearance in some waters. *) In my mental model of the programmer, we work at the edge of the "7 things one can keep in his mind at a time". Maybe to be a great developer that need to be 8. Pair Programming extends that to maybe 11. "Without mental effort", in this setting, means: not clogging up your first level cache.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
You will probabbly be feeling the effects for a long time.
Well I'v managed to reduce it to one programme now that doens't need much maintenance or altering, but whenever it does I end up with headache's from hell.
Scott Dorman wrote:
Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
I'm now in the process of doing the same for a client of us so I guess I'm heading the same direction as you, but I'm shure I'm just a noob in comparison ;P
Scott Dorman wrote: Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
I'm currently working for a company where coding standards are talked about but there has been no agreement on a definitive guideline. The result of this being that each person has their own way of doing things, leading to the problem that the code can be difficult to understand and maintain. It also appears that theres resistance to any move to try to standardise, the reason being that the people involved have their own opinions so we get nowhere further with the discussion. Another excuse given is theres "no time" to sort things like this out. The Question I've got for you is this; when you have implemented such standards in existing development teams, what kind of hurdles have you encountered? and how did you manage to overcome them? I'd like to see if theres an approach that could be taken to get a bunch of developers (and their managers) who are set in their own ways to agree the standard and stick to them (not that I'm in a position currently to push for this, but who knows!) Also, reaching an consensus on the standard vs someone taking responsiblity of the standards, which of these might be a better approach? Any thoughts from anyone on this are appreciated.
Billy. "Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side, a dark side and it holds the universe together!" - Anonymous my holding page..more coming soon!
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Scott Dorman wrote: Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
I'm currently working for a company where coding standards are talked about but there has been no agreement on a definitive guideline. The result of this being that each person has their own way of doing things, leading to the problem that the code can be difficult to understand and maintain. It also appears that theres resistance to any move to try to standardise, the reason being that the people involved have their own opinions so we get nowhere further with the discussion. Another excuse given is theres "no time" to sort things like this out. The Question I've got for you is this; when you have implemented such standards in existing development teams, what kind of hurdles have you encountered? and how did you manage to overcome them? I'd like to see if theres an approach that could be taken to get a bunch of developers (and their managers) who are set in their own ways to agree the standard and stick to them (not that I'm in a position currently to push for this, but who knows!) Also, reaching an consensus on the standard vs someone taking responsiblity of the standards, which of these might be a better approach? Any thoughts from anyone on this are appreciated.
Billy. "Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side, a dark side and it holds the universe together!" - Anonymous my holding page..more coming soon!
You might be better off asking scott this (reply to one of his posts) since he has alot more experiance in this than I have. I'v had the luxary up untill now to be at the start off it all and not having to agree with anyone (it was only me ;P )
williamFalconerUK wrote:
nother excuse given is theres "no time" to sort things like this out
Make the time because it will save you alot of time later on.
williamFalconerUK wrote:
approach that could be taken to get a bunch of developers (and their managers) who are set in their own ways to agree the standard and stick to them
Take an old programme/code (without comments or something) from them (written at least a year ago) and ask them to change something. Do the same but with code with comments and standerds and show them how much faster it can be.
williamFalconerUK wrote:
Also, reaching an consensus on the standard vs someone taking responsiblity of the standards, which of these might be a better approach?
In my (humble) opinion only one person should be responisble for the standerd but all should contribute (discusse best way)
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Scott Dorman wrote: Code standards/style is one of those spaces I actually like to play in and have established them at several of the companies I've worked for.
I'm currently working for a company where coding standards are talked about but there has been no agreement on a definitive guideline. The result of this being that each person has their own way of doing things, leading to the problem that the code can be difficult to understand and maintain. It also appears that theres resistance to any move to try to standardise, the reason being that the people involved have their own opinions so we get nowhere further with the discussion. Another excuse given is theres "no time" to sort things like this out. The Question I've got for you is this; when you have implemented such standards in existing development teams, what kind of hurdles have you encountered? and how did you manage to overcome them? I'd like to see if theres an approach that could be taken to get a bunch of developers (and their managers) who are set in their own ways to agree the standard and stick to them (not that I'm in a position currently to push for this, but who knows!) Also, reaching an consensus on the standard vs someone taking responsiblity of the standards, which of these might be a better approach? Any thoughts from anyone on this are appreciated.
Billy. "Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side, a dark side and it holds the universe together!" - Anonymous my holding page..more coming soon!
The defining of a standard is more important than what the standard actually states. The end result is consistency. In large organisations it can be difficult, the key is to involve everyone in the discussions. You want to come to a common consensus and then implement it rapidly. It might take a long time to reach a consensus, but lots of interesting things will come up. Also it is important to make it clear that the guys doing the coding are responsible for defining the standards, the manaqers should act as trainer and enablers making sure new recruits are aware of their role to maintain, follow and help develop those standards. You must make it clear that you are not trying to tell people how to code! Any decent programmer should secretly love the thought of working with and developing standards even if they oppose resistance to it initially. The key is to highlight the fact that they are responsible for the definitions, its not going to be a management decision forced upon them. A good way to start is to have some collaboration perhaps on a wiki. Thus allowing flexibility in the generation of the standards and also to help get people involved. Ultimately 1 person has to be accountable and responsible for managing the "released" standards. Also it is good to start with something. Find a good general standard and get peoples feedback on it, then try to implement it. Well I hope that gives you a few ideas. It is more of a cultural shift you are trying to achieve. Working from, maintaining and constantly improving standards is a hugely powerful way of working. It is imperative for any company to focus large amounts of time working ON the way they do things rather than constantly firefighting - working in it. The "we just haven't got time now, we're too busy" scenario never ends. The key is to offset the short term, with a much longer term vision! Steve O'Brien A successful person isn't necessarily better than her less successful peers at solving problems; her pattern-recognition facilities have just learned what problems are worth solving. www.newicon.net
