Let's sum it up
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BoneSoft wrote:
An agnostic is somebody wise enough to admit that they don't have the answer
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence?
BoneSoft wrote:
An atheist is somebody who thinks the answer isn't religion.
The answer is what makes you the happiest...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
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BoneSoft wrote:
An agnostic is somebody wise enough to admit that they don't have the answer
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence?
BoneSoft wrote:
An atheist is somebody who thinks the answer isn't religion.
The answer is what makes you the happiest...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
What does 'smart' have to do with it?
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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LOL Don't worry, it's just that no-one's ever asked it seriously.
Well, as much as I love them, I honestly have a tough time picturing Bruce and the gang frequenting CodeProject. But ya never know... ;)
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence?
Who told you there was a fence? God?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Who told you there was a fence? God?
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence. I'm not liking how this is making me look like a militant atheist who thinks everyone who doesn't share my thought is stupid. I really don't care about what anyone believes. That's your business and your free time. I thought it was a funny quote. I'm not in the mood for a back and forth on this. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. Enjoy your debates...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
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What does 'smart' have to do with it?
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
See my last response to Oakman. I'm not debating this on two fronts. It's 5 P.M. here and I'm heading home for the evening. Enjoy the rest of your day / evening...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
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Oakman wrote:
Who told you there was a fence? God?
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence. I'm not liking how this is making me look like a militant atheist who thinks everyone who doesn't share my thought is stupid. I really don't care about what anyone believes. That's your business and your free time. I thought it was a funny quote. I'm not in the mood for a back and forth on this. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. Enjoy your debates...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
Well, since "yes" or "no" would require facts, and there are none that prove or disprove religion, wouldn't "I dunno" be the 'smart' answer? It's certainly the only pragmatic answer. But sure, technically it's on the fence.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Look, it's not that complicated. An atheist is a non-believer in God by definition, an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe that the question can be absolutely proven either way. Calling an atheist a believer is nonsensical, and pretending like atheist and agnostic are two points on the same spectrum displays a complete ignorance of the meaning of both of those words.
James L. Thomson wrote:
An atheist is a non-believer in God in any gods by definition
It's interesting to note that the accusation levied by monotheists against atheists is the very same accusation that can be levied by polytheists against monotheists. Put more succinctly, "when you understand why you don't believe in all the other possible gods, you will understand why I don't believe in yours." For what its worth, my position is an absence of belief one way or the other. That is to say that even if a God or many gods exist, I simply possess no belief in them - I do not, however, assert anything about whether they exist. That's a question the human cognitive faculty is not equipped to answer. Some variants of atheism are an assertion of a supposed truth; some aren't. That's why it sucks to talk about this subject on this board... recognizing such nuance doesn't happen often here.
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Problem with agnostics is that they usually lack any consistency in their (non?)belief system. Ask an agnostic if god exists and the answer you are likely to get is "maybe/unknown". Ask them if Bigfoot, leprechauns, the Toothfairy, or Dracula exists and the answer you most likely get is "No." It seems to me that if they really want to stick with being agnostic they would have to be equally open to ALL superstitions being possible regardless of how idiotic they sound. Why draw a line in the sand for religion and not the other superstitions? Atheists at least have consistency on their side. Ask them the same questions and the answer you get is: "[insert superstition here] does not exist."
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BoneSoft wrote:
An agnostic is somebody wise enough to admit that they don't have the answer
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence?
BoneSoft wrote:
An atheist is somebody who thinks the answer isn't religion.
The answer is what makes you the happiest...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
VonHagNDaz wrote:
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence
It's not fence-sitting. It's a simple recognition that you have insufficient evidence to prove either conjecture. Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence. Of the three, only agnostics are unpersuaded by the propaganda from believers in either conjecture.
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Oakman wrote:
Who told you there was a fence? God?
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence. I'm not liking how this is making me look like a militant atheist who thinks everyone who doesn't share my thought is stupid. I really don't care about what anyone believes. That's your business and your free time. I thought it was a funny quote. I'm not in the mood for a back and forth on this. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. Enjoy your debates...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
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You wouldn't happen to be the basist for Iron Maiden would you?
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
ROTFL - I asked him that ages ago.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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Look, it's not that complicated. An atheist is a non-believer in God by definition, an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe that the question can be absolutely proven either way. Calling an atheist a believer is nonsensical, and pretending like atheist and agnostic are two points on the same spectrum displays a complete ignorance of the meaning of both of those words.
James L. Thomson wrote:
Calling an atheist a believer is nonsensica
No, it's not. An atheist believes there is no God. They are a believer. In fact, some of them are more dogmatic and illogical than any Christian or other believer in God.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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Problem with agnostics is that they usually lack any consistency in their (non?)belief system. Ask an agnostic if god exists and the answer you are likely to get is "maybe/unknown". Ask them if Bigfoot, leprechauns, the Toothfairy, or Dracula exists and the answer you most likely get is "No." It seems to me that if they really want to stick with being agnostic they would have to be equally open to ALL superstitions being possible regardless of how idiotic they sound. Why draw a line in the sand for religion and not the other superstitions? Atheists at least have consistency on their side. Ask them the same questions and the answer you get is: "[insert superstition here] does not exist."
thrakazog wrote:
Atheists at least have consistency on their side.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.." ~ Ralph Waldo Emmerson. Dracula is dead - that's different data than I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth, which is different from there are sightings of Bigfoot that have not been explained well enough to dismiss, etc. To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Ka?l wrote:
An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
Karl, doesn't the effort that the folks here who spent such an inordinate amount of time shouting down people of faith make you wonder? Why spent that much time and effort arguing against something you don't believe in? Could it be ... ?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
That's wrong. An atheist simply lacks a belief in one or more gods. An agnostic believes that the ultimate truth of the universe is unknowabble. So, answering the question "do you believe in god?" with "I'm an agnostic" makes no sense. I actually am an agnostic, but that has nothing to do with whether I believe in a god. I'm both an agnostic and an athiest. These words are answers to two different questions.
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Oakman wrote:
Who told you there was a fence? God?
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence. I'm not liking how this is making me look like a militant atheist who thinks everyone who doesn't share my thought is stupid. I really don't care about what anyone believes. That's your business and your free time. I thought it was a funny quote. I'm not in the mood for a back and forth on this. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. Enjoy your debates...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
VonHagNDaz wrote:
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence.
There is no fence. "Do you believe in god?" Yes - Theist No - Atheist There is no middle ground. "I don't know" is the same as "no" -- you don't believe. Whether or not you believe that it's ever possible to know the truth has nothing to do with what you believe. You can be an agnotist theist or an agnostic atheist.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
Calling an atheist a believer is nonsensica
No, it's not. An atheist believes there is no God. They are a believer. In fact, some of them are more dogmatic and illogical than any Christian or other believer in God.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
An atheist believes there is no God.
A newborn baby believes in nothing. Yet all babies are atheists, are they not? Or are you using some strange definition of the word atheist that I'm not familiar with? What if you found a tribe of people on some remote island and when you questioned them you found they knew nothing about religion, nobody in their society had ever invented the concept of gods. These people would correctly be described as atheists, would they not? Yet they don't believe anything about god; they have no concept of god. They lack a believe in god. Is this not the definition of atheism?
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thrakazog wrote:
Atheists at least have consistency on their side.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.." ~ Ralph Waldo Emmerson. Dracula is dead - that's different data than I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth, which is different from there are sightings of Bigfoot that have not been explained well enough to dismiss, etc. To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
"I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions --but I don't always agree with them." George Bush, US President Yes, quoting famous people sure does prove a point.
Oakman wrote:
I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth
So your point is that the tooth fairy exists and is in fact you? Can I have my teeth back?
Oakman wrote:
To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish
When the questions you're getting are in the form of "Here's some superstition that some guys pulled out of their asses do you want to believe it with no proof?" I'm going to stick with my one answer. Not doing so would be foolish. But then again I'm not the tooth fairy. You may have some insight that I don't.
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence
It's not fence-sitting. It's a simple recognition that you have insufficient evidence to prove either conjecture. Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence. Of the three, only agnostics are unpersuaded by the propaganda from believers in either conjecture.
Rob Graham wrote:
Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence.
Maybe they see all the bad things in the world and see that as evidence that there is no god. Not a good god anyways.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence.
Maybe they see all the bad things in the world and see that as evidence that there is no god. Not a good god anyways.
No matter how you cut it, the evidence is inconclusive.