The US/China standoff -- opinions from the rest of the world?
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You know, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. If we had a strict policy of isolationism, we'd be criticized for not helping those less fortunate than ourselves, smaller countries, or whatever. Whenever you take a side, there will always be someone on the other side that disagrees with you and will likely be very vocal about it. So simply choosing a side is enough to get negative publicity no matter what you do. Not choosing a side also gains you negative publicity. Further, We do have treaties with other countries to help out. This allows us to protect countries like Saudi Arabia who provide so much of the oil we need. If we didn't, someone like Sadam would come in and take all the oil producing countries and hold the world hostage, again, we'd be criticized for not doing anything about it. It's a tough job, and to sit there and criticize is easy.
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I doubt if an isolationist policy is what you want. Historically the US loses out more during it pro-isolationist periods. Sorry, I can't point you to references, but I do remember reading about this some years ago. Stephen Kellett
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The Chinese "government" needs to take account of Chinese public opinion, and believe me, it's very anti-American (and that's without the government stirring things up - although they have in the past). I believe that's why they are taking such an unusual line. Ever since the stupid bombing of the Chinese embassy, the Chinese public have on the whole been anti-American (although it was the government that made them this way initially). Cheers, Peter
I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, the Tawain issue has to utilize army, and US happen to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Check out your history book about Korea war, Vint Nam.... Sooner or later. Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle friends like that? :confused: Stan He
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I'm an American who has spent a great deal of time overseas for work...at the moment, however, I'm in the US and was curious how people outside the US view the brewing storm over the American "spy" plane which is currently in China. I spoke to a friend last night who is a atmospheric scientist, and his data collection aircraft is basically the same airplane as the one which is now in China. He says that the plane is old, slow, and big....that he would be very surprised if it could hit a fighter unless the fighter pilot was asleep. Should the US aplogize? Should the US cut off trade relations? Should the crew be held in China? Should the plane be returned to the US?
I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, in the future, the Tawain issue has to utilize Chinese army, and US happens to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Will they? Check out your history book about Korea war and Viet Nam.... Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle "friends" like that? ...please do not use "double standard" whenever needed, and BS with me! The "intruder crew" should be happy, they are still alive! A Chinese Man
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It must be frustrating for the American gov't not getting there way :eek: I think China has proved that they will run there own policies and not have any external countries (us) dictate anything.
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If the US Gov't promised not to supply arms to Taiwan, I bet the 24 Americans and the plane would be returned with a bow on top! China's gov't doesn't really care who bumped who, all they are concerned about is the American involvement w/ Taiwan.
Then I would say they are hostages who have been kidnapped -- meet the kidnappers demands and you might get the hostage back....I seem to remember that England gave Germany Chekoslovakia (sp?) to prevent a war....it didn't work though...peace can't be made part of a hostage negotiation.
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I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, the Tawain issue has to utilize army, and US happen to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Check out your history book about Korea war, Vint Nam.... Sooner or later. Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle friends like that? :confused: Stan He
Every major countries spies on other countries. China spies on the US, remember all those secrets that found their way 'somehow' into chinese hands from the nuclear testing labratory? The plane was in international waters. We constantly have russian trollers hanging off our coasts listening to our airwaves with spy equipment. We don't sink them for it. The chinese probably have spy bases inside the US and are sending encrypted communication over the internet back to china. England spies on the US, the US spies on England. it's called "intelligence" because we don't want to be taken by surprise. Most foreign embassies are nothing but spy fronts. It's standard everyday procedure in this world. If you don't do it, you will be at a disadvantage.
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Valid point , but why not extend the argument . How about a film about how a Brit perfected the light bulb , or even how we decided not to win the American War of Independance . The result would be uproar , and justifiably so , because it would be viewed as an attempt to rewrite history. This is not a trivial point , look at the current arguments between Japan and South Korea about the content of school text books. Japan is claiming to have liberated large parts of Asia in the 30's and 40's . A point that has some justification if you view the Dutch, French and British Colonists as "Anglo-Saxon invaders" . Its just that the Koreans feel they were not liberated from anybody , simply subjugated to Imperial Japan .(There is a minor point that the Anglo-Saxon tag is not strictly accurate either). When we still had the Soviet Union , History was continually being rewritten there , even to the extent that their greatest Generals were often sidelined and all credit given to the political masters. Rewriting history for commercial reasons is not a harmless thing to do , these untruths can be propagated for a long time . Asprin was invented by a German working for Bayer , he was a Jew , so the credit went to his understudy a Gentile . See , when you start the mis information , where do you stop ? Regards Andrew Torrance
Fine do that. I'll go see the movies as you describe, so would most of my friends. Sure, there will be some outcry, but most of us will take it for what it is. Entertainment. Movies do not teach, nor should they be taken as fact. They entertain. That's it. They're fiction except when expressly represented as accurate reenactment. Movies intended for entertainment are not textbooks, nor are they educational films. You can't use arguments about such things to support you in this case. I welcome enteratainment from other countries that wish to provide an entertaining story, whether its fact or not. You forget, in this country we embrace free speech, even if we don't agree with it. Mein Kampf is not illegal here, like it is in Germany. Do not mistake a movie studio's interesting work of fiction as some plot by a government to rewrite history.
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"America is still pursuing its policy of "will-do-whats-best-for-us-Rest-can-go-to-hell"." -- Isn't this what every government does?? I think the fear among US policy makers with Pakistan and Palestine is way that they try to "solve" their problems....in the case of Pakistan, haven't there been 3 wars with India, and isn't there a defacto war going on between the two over who owns a few mountains?? Hasn't Pakistan set off atomic bombs within the last few years?? Palestine and Isreal are both amazing to me....why would two groups who actually share a great deal in common feel the need to be at eat others throats....when I was in europe I meet a group of Isrealis my age...they were full of such hate it amazed me. As for keeping $500 million....you must know what you're talking about, but no one I know would take money that wasn't theirs unless they were a dirt-bag.
About those more than $500m, US gov is selling soya beans to Pak gov on 3x market rates and charging the 2x freight charges. Pak gov complained about this to US gov and US gov replied either take this or forget the money. That qualifies for more than a dirt-bag! Besides that my point is that USA is one of the countries of this world. And the one which can make the difference in making this world a better place. A BIG difference. Only if they lead by making examples like "will-do-whats-best-for-us-and-for-you". This I say coz US has the resources to do this. Making environment better is USA's responsibility as it is the biggest producer of the CO2 in the world. Making missile defense shield will only make things worse. And everyone knows this that Russia and China will soon follow and so will EU in some years. The example is Japan. I have hardly read in newspapers or seen in news channels that Japan is building up their arsenal like US/Israel/Pakistan/India/China. They are just concentrating on making their and other ppl's lives better. Correct me if I am wrong in Japan's case.
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About those more than $500m, US gov is selling soya beans to Pak gov on 3x market rates and charging the 2x freight charges. Pak gov complained about this to US gov and US gov replied either take this or forget the money. That qualifies for more than a dirt-bag! Besides that my point is that USA is one of the countries of this world. And the one which can make the difference in making this world a better place. A BIG difference. Only if they lead by making examples like "will-do-whats-best-for-us-and-for-you". This I say coz US has the resources to do this. Making environment better is USA's responsibility as it is the biggest producer of the CO2 in the world. Making missile defense shield will only make things worse. And everyone knows this that Russia and China will soon follow and so will EU in some years. The example is Japan. I have hardly read in newspapers or seen in news channels that Japan is building up their arsenal like US/Israel/Pakistan/India/China. They are just concentrating on making their and other ppl's lives better. Correct me if I am wrong in Japan's case.
Well....the US government does not sell soya beans....american companies do. As for paying 3x the market rate...well there are lots of countries with soya beans....why not buy them at the market rate???? Somehow this example seems to have been tainted by a news service with an ax to grind.....commmon sense tells me that if it were as simple as you claim, you could purchase soya beans at market rates from someone else.....given that the rules of supply-and-demand are not controled by any one country. On the CO2 issue....many people in the US are unhappy with the current administration's decission to walk away from the Kyoto treaty, but before we can walk away from it, the senate and house of representatives must agree with the president, and that hasn't happened yet. The point with Japan -- if a Chinese intel plane flys close to Japan to gather information from US forces (or Korea for that matter), and the exact same incident were to occur, I know that China would be (rightfully) VERY VERY angry. My reading from the people I know is that we are not angry that the accident occured, but are getting angry that the crew of the plane is being held -- and I don't know a btter word -- hostage by China.
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It may have technically been in international airspace, but only by 1 mile. It then entered Chinese airspace and landed at one of their most sensitive airbases without permission. They might have called a mayday, but they didn't ask for permission. If they can spend time destoying all their crypto data, why can't they ask for permission to enter Chinese airspace? Peter
How can 1 mile be "technically" in international airspace??? Either you are in international airspace or you are not! The plane only entered Chinese airspace after a Chinese plane hit them in international airspace. What were their choices?? Are you such a man of principle that you would die before heading for the first landing strip you could land at??? Do you seriously expect that the pilot was in the back of the plane destroying crypto data instead of flying the plane which, if you have looked at the photos, is obviously very badly damaged??? If I entertain your frame of mind, it would be alright for US planes to send fighter planes to hit any plane that comes near our airspace, and if they land at a US airstrip, to hold them hostage until their country says that they are sorry for being so foolish as to come too close to our airspace.
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I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, in the future, the Tawain issue has to utilize Chinese army, and US happens to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Will they? Check out your history book about Korea war and Viet Nam.... Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle "friends" like that? ...please do not use "double standard" whenever needed, and BS with me! The "intruder crew" should be happy, they are still alive! A Chinese Man
No kidding....I'm sure the crew is very happy to be alive....if the pilot had been more skilled he could have killed them while saying alive.....a silly statement don't you agree??? I do. I'm sorry that the pilot is dead, and I'm sorry that people seem to think that if the US government sides with Taiwan that its OK for China to do anything it wants.... You can bet that the US WILL sell arms to Taiwan now....the one sure way to make the US decide to oppose a government is to hold its citizens hostage....maybe you're prefer someone from the US goverment to wake you up in the middle of the night and hold you until the US crew is returned?? I think not....and I don't think any americans I know would approve of it either.
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Well....the US government does not sell soya beans....american companies do. As for paying 3x the market rate...well there are lots of countries with soya beans....why not buy them at the market rate???? Somehow this example seems to have been tainted by a news service with an ax to grind.....commmon sense tells me that if it were as simple as you claim, you could purchase soya beans at market rates from someone else.....given that the rules of supply-and-demand are not controled by any one country. On the CO2 issue....many people in the US are unhappy with the current administration's decission to walk away from the Kyoto treaty, but before we can walk away from it, the senate and house of representatives must agree with the president, and that hasn't happened yet. The point with Japan -- if a Chinese intel plane flys close to Japan to gather information from US forces (or Korea for that matter), and the exact same incident were to occur, I know that China would be (rightfully) VERY VERY angry. My reading from the people I know is that we are not angry that the accident occured, but are getting angry that the crew of the plane is being held -- and I don't know a btter word -- hostage by China.
"As for paying 3x the market rate...well there are lots of countries with soya beans....why not buy them at the market rate????" You are not getting it right. US gov has the Pakistani $$$ with them. In other words, US gov is forcing Pak gov to buy the soy seeds (not beans, I was wrong earlier) in exchange of F-16s. Imagine that!
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"As for paying 3x the market rate...well there are lots of countries with soya beans....why not buy them at the market rate????" You are not getting it right. US gov has the Pakistani $$$ with them. In other words, US gov is forcing Pak gov to buy the soy seeds (not beans, I was wrong earlier) in exchange of F-16s. Imagine that!
So let me get this straight.....your government is paying for F-16s by purchasing soy beans/seeds, but somehow has Pakistani money??? Something about this doesn't make ANY sense. Maybe you should start at the beginning??
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I have no idea what is going to happen next , but it is going to be interesting to watch how Dubya handles it . Is he going to go for the popularist macho approach , or the pragmatic political approach . Regards Torrance:confused:
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I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, in the future, the Tawain issue has to utilize Chinese army, and US happens to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Will they? Check out your history book about Korea war and Viet Nam.... Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle "friends" like that? ...please do not use "double standard" whenever needed, and BS with me! The "intruder crew" should be happy, they are still alive! A Chinese Man
>> ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Yeah, and China doesn't spy on the USA, and the USA doesn't spy on England, and England doesn't spy on Germany, which in turn spies on England, who's spying on the USA which is spying on China! Every major country in the world keeps on eye on everyone. That's the only way they can guarantee the safety of their own citizens from a foreign threat. Every spy incident around the world is embarassing for the spying country but rest assured that none of the parties involved are clean and inocent. BTW, isn't this a software developent site? What's the matter with all this politics crap? Let's keep it civilized: gimme the C++! :)
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So let me get this straight.....your government is paying for F-16s by purchasing soy beans/seeds, but somehow has Pakistani money??? Something about this doesn't make ANY sense. Maybe you should start at the beginning??
Ok, let me tell you from the beginning. :) Pakistan gov orders F-16s in early 1990s. I think the order was for 60 planes. Pak gov starts paying in installments. Mr Bush Sr. puts sanctions on Pak on selling arms and weapons to Pak. Mr Bush keeps the money. Pak gov starts negotiations. US delays the issue. Recently it was decided by US that they wont give back the money, instead will give Pak the soy seeds instead. At the rate that I mentioned earlier. Pak gov protests, US says take it or leave it. Pak had the chance to sue US gov in US court. Pak being an ally and third world country (actually gov was afraid of to take US gov to court :( ) didnt. There was a time span in which Pak had to do it. It expired and Pak is now helpless. US has upper hand now. Get it? :) Ammar
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"about a million Americans have died as a direct consequence of the asinine political incompetence of the countries of Europe." Now THIS is the sort of thing that inflames anti-American opinion. "On the other hand, none of them have died as a consequence of ours." Ermm, I presume you've heard or the Korean War - it wasn't just America fighting that (UK lost almost 25,000 troops) as well as Australians and other NATO countries. Also, what about Korea, Vietnam, etc, etc. Haven't done too well their have you? :mad: Why should the whole world suffer "global warming", just because America doesn't want to cut down on emissions? Bush complains about 3rd world countries not having to cut emissions, but the USA is the world's largest producer of CO2 per person - more than even 3rd world countries. "Heck, without us, they would all be sending their opinions in German, if they were allowed to send them at all." Maybe - that's not to say we're not grateful for what you've done. But on the other hand, in the American war of independence, a British soldier had George Washington in his sights. Because his back was turned, and because tradition was you wouldn't shoot an enemy in the back, he didn't fire. If he had shot him, the chances are you'd still be British or at least a colony. It's also things like "The Patriot" and "U571" that cause resentment, particularly in the UK. Hollywood completely fabricating stories and alleging that it was USN and not the British who retrieved the first enigma encoding device. Cheers, Peter Pearson
Peter, It is very easy to tell that you do not like the US. However, your posts throughout this thread are chock full of inaccuracies. I'll answer them all here: 1. About the bombing of the Chinese embassy. Bad intelligence was the cause of the bombing. Bill Clinton, at the time president, had been brazenly trying to improve relations with China throughout his entire second term. The escorts to the B2 bomber are standard in those types of missions. The jammer planes, because the B2 is not 'invisble' to radar and requires the jamming to complete its radar cover. The fighter jets escort the bomber because the B2 doesn't have any air-to-air fighting capability. 2. The plane was in international waters so what if it was only 1 mile, 'monitoring' China, not 'spying.' The plane was clearly identified as US and on a standard intelligence mission run hundreds of times. 'Spying' is secretly intercepting communications or intelligence. 3. U-571 Clearly indicates after the movie that the first crews to retrieve the enigma were British when it dedicates the film to those crews at the end of the movie. Hollywood happens to know that 'Americans' will empathize with 'American' crewmembers risking their lives. For what it's worth, the German officers, who felt they were in the right, are just as brave as the British and American crews. Submarines in WWII were not pleasent. Check your facts before you flame out at the US again. Steven Mitcham
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Peter, It is very easy to tell that you do not like the US. However, your posts throughout this thread are chock full of inaccuracies. I'll answer them all here: 1. About the bombing of the Chinese embassy. Bad intelligence was the cause of the bombing. Bill Clinton, at the time president, had been brazenly trying to improve relations with China throughout his entire second term. The escorts to the B2 bomber are standard in those types of missions. The jammer planes, because the B2 is not 'invisble' to radar and requires the jamming to complete its radar cover. The fighter jets escort the bomber because the B2 doesn't have any air-to-air fighting capability. 2. The plane was in international waters so what if it was only 1 mile, 'monitoring' China, not 'spying.' The plane was clearly identified as US and on a standard intelligence mission run hundreds of times. 'Spying' is secretly intercepting communications or intelligence. 3. U-571 Clearly indicates after the movie that the first crews to retrieve the enigma were British when it dedicates the film to those crews at the end of the movie. Hollywood happens to know that 'Americans' will empathize with 'American' crewmembers risking their lives. For what it's worth, the German officers, who felt they were in the right, are just as brave as the British and American crews. Submarines in WWII were not pleasent. Check your facts before you flame out at the US again. Steven Mitcham
Steven, It's not that I don't like the US - it's I don't agree with some of their policies. I know that as I'm British they have nothing to do with me (except possibly things like Kyoto), but when I'm asked for my opinion, I'll give it. Both the UK and the US (and other countries) have done things that with hindsight were stupid, or were misuses of their power, I'm not saying it's only America. The UK has on several occasions been accused of trying to assassinate leaders of other countries. I believe in US law this is illegal, and because of the special relationship between the US and the UK, Britain has done things instead - alleged assassination attempts like Muammar Qaddafi, Saddam, etc, which have been leaked by ex-MI6 agents). 1. None of the other B2's (or even F117's after the first F117 was shot down) had escorts in the later stages of the war when the bombing took place - why did that one? And it doesn't explain why it was a US mission and not a NATO mission (there were other B1, B2 flown missions as NATO missions). 2. Okay, fair point. But I'd say it would have been possible for your aircraft to ask for permission to enter airspace. What good it would have done is debateable, but if the crew can destroy the crypto data, why can't they ask for permission. 3. Someone else said this, so it's obviously me getting carried away. I apologise. Regards, Peter
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I felt sorry for those countries, who listen to the US Command... same as "my listening to my mgr"! Attention: only those voicing US, will NOT be deleted, on this site. :rose: