Overworked Junior [insert title here]
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Don't worry - they use it on people approaching retirement age, too. You're not being singled out, though people in the technical professions have been taken for suckers for a couple of decades now. Spineless worms... They used to use promises of stock bonuses, until their stocks all proved their real worth when the market found out that most of the companies in the .com era were hollow shells without products or services that anyone wanted. Now that the economy worldwide is taking a dump, they use the fear of being unemployed for the same purpose - to avoid paying you for what you contribute to their bottom lines. If they expect a bit of OT to get through a hard spot, that's entirely reasonable. All companies have bad times, and team players are expected to do a bit extra to help out the cause. But too many companies expect that sort of extra effort all the time; that's wrong, and they should pay for those extra hours in cash or in kind. Being a newbie you should expect to have to prove yourself, but you're nobody's slave. Only you can decide which position you're being expected to fill; every case is unique. From my point of view - all companies are experiencing tough times right now, and you may just have the bad luck to be entering the job market at a bad time. If that's the case, quit whining and do your part. People much senior to you will throw in the towel and make room for you to advance. :-D If not, and this company treats employees like this in good times, as well, get out now. They aren't all that bad. Just make sure you have something else lined up before you announce your departure. This is no time to jump without a landing pad...
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move. So I jumped ship over the hill to engineering and military where he had absolutely no influence. Where there is a will, there is a way.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Have you tracked what you are achieving for the Company every day? Please understnd that your productivity in a very crude way is measured by what you produce and not what you learn. Unfortunately this is what is happning in Jobs now...
Tapas Shome System Software Engineer Keen Computer Solutions 1408 Erin Street Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada R3E 2S8 http://www.keencomputer.com
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
I hate it. Truly, I HATE working long hours. No matter if they are paid or not, this is BAD, VERY BAD. I understand a week or a couple of weeks, but if it lasts any longer IT IS BAD. I have better things to do than to spend my whole life at work, I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
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I hate it. Truly, I HATE working long hours. No matter if they are paid or not, this is BAD, VERY BAD. I understand a week or a couple of weeks, but if it lasts any longer IT IS BAD. I have better things to do than to spend my whole life at work, I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
Yes, I wish water wasn't wet. :)
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
This kind of post comes up every few weeks - my employer is mean, waaah! You chose to work there buddy I'm afraid, or at least I'm pretty sure he didn't come looking for you to personally give you a hard time. You have exactly 2 choices, stay or leave, its entirely up to you (and welcome to the real world!).
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
You're lucky to work only 12? Now when we was young, we were lucky to get a break from programming and suck on a damp cloth during our 1 minute lunch break right before they pulled out our toe nails for every bug they found in the system. Ahhh.. those were the day. But you know.. in those days. We were happy. Poor. But we were coding.
<>< :: have the courage to use your own reason
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You could always try to make it on your own. My guess is that you'd be happy to only work 12 hours a day! I have no idea about your particular employer, but the situation isn't the greatest right now and he may be giving you an honest heads-up. The lowest ranked and youngest are usually the first to be let go, unless they can turn out work better and cheaper than anyone else. Take an honest look at yourself -- it's not easy to do, BTW -- and decide if you, with all the hours you put in, can turn out more and better work than everyone else in your shop. If you can, then do it and make sure the boss knows -- if nothing else, it's great to put on a resume. If you can't, and that's not unusual for someone starting out with little practical experience, then you need to figure out why and then figure out how to gain those talents. Seriously, there are no doubt a few scumbag employers, but most are just having to deal with the reality of the situation. If you have better options, use them. If you don't, then I'd keep quiet -- and start getting my better options lined up. From experience I can tell you that about the only thing worse than having to work long hours, is not having any work at all.
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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You're lucky to work only 12? Now when we was young, we were lucky to get a break from programming and suck on a damp cloth during our 1 minute lunch break right before they pulled out our toe nails for every bug they found in the system. Ahhh.. those were the day. But you know.. in those days. We were happy. Poor. But we were coding.
<>< :: have the courage to use your own reason
A break? Luxury! I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down code factory, and pay owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah
Graham Librarians rule, Ook!
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A break? Luxury! I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down code factory, and pay owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah
Graham Librarians rule, Ook!
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Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
Yes, I wish water wasn't wet. :)
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I wish water wasn't wet
I don't. :) Water was created like that, work as we know it was created by human civilizations and world could be well without it. Not every culture perceives work the same as the western culture does. In example Latins seem to enjoy their life more and work less. I understand the need of labor to produce goods and advance the civilization, but I don't think we need to work 12h a day, we could even work less than standard 8. It sucks to spend so much of one's life working and then die.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I wish water wasn't wet
I don't. :) Water was created like that, work as we know it was created by human civilizations and world could be well without it. Not every culture perceives work the same as the western culture does. In example Latins seem to enjoy their life more and work less. I understand the need of labor to produce goods and advance the civilization, but I don't think we need to work 12h a day, we could even work less than standard 8. It sucks to spend so much of one's life working and then die.
I completely agreed with your point. I was merely trying to be humorous (bad pun, of course) :)
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
working 12 hours a day ... seems excessive to me
Only work 12hrs a day for yourself, never for someone else - unless you're getting a REALLY good overtime allowance &/or time off in lieu. (Exceptions to this are things like mining & oil rig work where your number of days on are about the same as your days off - but that's effectively both good overtime + time off in lieu anyway). Up to 50 hrs/week is pretty common/standard in professions in US/UK/Australia/Japan (yay for mainland Europe where they've long-since cottoned on to how overtime reduces productivity!) but over 50hrs/wk is really pushing it. If they're telling you there's no work for you if you don't work 12hrs/day without overtime (or even just hinting at it) & trying to tell you you won't get better conditions anywhere else, I can virtually guarantee they're trying to exploit you. If that's the way they treat you while you're in your probationary period (& you should use that time to evaluate them as much as they evaluate you!), it's not going to get any better in a permanent position. Move on, but don't bitch about your old boss during interviews - even if the interviewer knows them by reputation & leads you into commenting on them - just say your old position wasn't right for you, & if pressed, say you'd rather not comment on it further.
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys
Only unscrupulous ones - and not just on the new guys.
T-Mac-Oz "When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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This kind of post comes up every few weeks - my employer is mean, waaah! You chose to work there buddy I'm afraid, or at least I'm pretty sure he didn't come looking for you to personally give you a hard time. You have exactly 2 choices, stay or leave, its entirely up to you (and welcome to the real world!).
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Ah... but you misunderstood, or maybe I was not clear... I am not overworked... I was more curious if this was a normal practice or not, as at least one of my friends has fallen into it.
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Ah... but you misunderstood, or maybe I was not clear... I am not overworked... I was more curious if this was a normal practice or not, as at least one of my friends has fallen into it.
Normal or not its still the personal choice of the person in that position - moaning about it (or taking a poll on the matter) makes no difference. If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I wish water wasn't wet
I don't. :) Water was created like that, work as we know it was created by human civilizations and world could be well without it. Not every culture perceives work the same as the western culture does. In example Latins seem to enjoy their life more and work less. I understand the need of labor to produce goods and advance the civilization, but I don't think we need to work 12h a day, we could even work less than standard 8. It sucks to spend so much of one's life working and then die.
Well, No offense, Latin countries (generally) don't do too well...
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Squirrel Hacker wrote:
but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move. So I jumped ship over the hill to engineering and military where he had absolutely no influence. Where there is a will, there is a way.
El Corazon wrote:
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move.
Interesting. In every state of the US in which I've lived, if only ONE prospective employer gave evidence your boss had done that, you'd be living for a year (at least) at his (or his company's) expense. Even 25 years ago, most companies had wisely adopted the policy of simply confirming that an employee worked from this date to that date, unless they had something incontrovertibly positive to say about you, just to avoid the possiblity of a defamation lawsuit.
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Well, No offense, Latin countries (generally) don't do too well...
Mexico does quite well last time I've seen their Gross Domestic Product numbers. But it's true what you say, although the point is not how the country fares, but how happy are its citizens.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
I once worked for a company which had far more consultants than full-time developers working for it. At least half these consultants spent more time learning VB/ASP than they did producing working code. Think about it, and think about what you do. You need to produce more than the next guy to be more valuable than the next guy. The president of the company I first worked for as a permanent programmer told us more than once, "Overtime does not impress me. Results impress me." Keep this firmly in mind.
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I hate it. Truly, I HATE working long hours. No matter if they are paid or not, this is BAD, VERY BAD. I understand a week or a couple of weeks, but if it lasts any longer IT IS BAD. I have better things to do than to spend my whole life at work, I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
Figure out how to do the work in less time. Once you figure it out, start proving it works. Once you've proven it works, and you are producing as much in eight hours as you previously were in twelve, AND you're producing in eight hours what every OTHER programmer in your shop is producing in twelve, start leaving on time. Don't try to fool yourself about these figures, either; they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"