Overworked Junior [insert title here]
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I wish water wasn't wet
I don't. :) Water was created like that, work as we know it was created by human civilizations and world could be well without it. Not every culture perceives work the same as the western culture does. In example Latins seem to enjoy their life more and work less. I understand the need of labor to produce goods and advance the civilization, but I don't think we need to work 12h a day, we could even work less than standard 8. It sucks to spend so much of one's life working and then die.
I completely agreed with your point. I was merely trying to be humorous (bad pun, of course) :)
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
working 12 hours a day ... seems excessive to me
Only work 12hrs a day for yourself, never for someone else - unless you're getting a REALLY good overtime allowance &/or time off in lieu. (Exceptions to this are things like mining & oil rig work where your number of days on are about the same as your days off - but that's effectively both good overtime + time off in lieu anyway). Up to 50 hrs/week is pretty common/standard in professions in US/UK/Australia/Japan (yay for mainland Europe where they've long-since cottoned on to how overtime reduces productivity!) but over 50hrs/wk is really pushing it. If they're telling you there's no work for you if you don't work 12hrs/day without overtime (or even just hinting at it) & trying to tell you you won't get better conditions anywhere else, I can virtually guarantee they're trying to exploit you. If that's the way they treat you while you're in your probationary period (& you should use that time to evaluate them as much as they evaluate you!), it's not going to get any better in a permanent position. Move on, but don't bitch about your old boss during interviews - even if the interviewer knows them by reputation & leads you into commenting on them - just say your old position wasn't right for you, & if pressed, say you'd rather not comment on it further.
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys
Only unscrupulous ones - and not just on the new guys.
T-Mac-Oz "When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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This kind of post comes up every few weeks - my employer is mean, waaah! You chose to work there buddy I'm afraid, or at least I'm pretty sure he didn't come looking for you to personally give you a hard time. You have exactly 2 choices, stay or leave, its entirely up to you (and welcome to the real world!).
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Ah... but you misunderstood, or maybe I was not clear... I am not overworked... I was more curious if this was a normal practice or not, as at least one of my friends has fallen into it.
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Ah... but you misunderstood, or maybe I was not clear... I am not overworked... I was more curious if this was a normal practice or not, as at least one of my friends has fallen into it.
Normal or not its still the personal choice of the person in that position - moaning about it (or taking a poll on the matter) makes no difference. If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I wish water wasn't wet
I don't. :) Water was created like that, work as we know it was created by human civilizations and world could be well without it. Not every culture perceives work the same as the western culture does. In example Latins seem to enjoy their life more and work less. I understand the need of labor to produce goods and advance the civilization, but I don't think we need to work 12h a day, we could even work less than standard 8. It sucks to spend so much of one's life working and then die.
Well, No offense, Latin countries (generally) don't do too well...
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Squirrel Hacker wrote:
but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move. So I jumped ship over the hill to engineering and military where he had absolutely no influence. Where there is a will, there is a way.
El Corazon wrote:
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move.
Interesting. In every state of the US in which I've lived, if only ONE prospective employer gave evidence your boss had done that, you'd be living for a year (at least) at his (or his company's) expense. Even 25 years ago, most companies had wisely adopted the policy of simply confirming that an employee worked from this date to that date, unless they had something incontrovertibly positive to say about you, just to avoid the possiblity of a defamation lawsuit.
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Well, No offense, Latin countries (generally) don't do too well...
Mexico does quite well last time I've seen their Gross Domestic Product numbers. But it's true what you say, although the point is not how the country fares, but how happy are its citizens.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
I once worked for a company which had far more consultants than full-time developers working for it. At least half these consultants spent more time learning VB/ASP than they did producing working code. Think about it, and think about what you do. You need to produce more than the next guy to be more valuable than the next guy. The president of the company I first worked for as a permanent programmer told us more than once, "Overtime does not impress me. Results impress me." Keep this firmly in mind.
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I hate it. Truly, I HATE working long hours. No matter if they are paid or not, this is BAD, VERY BAD. I understand a week or a couple of weeks, but if it lasts any longer IT IS BAD. I have better things to do than to spend my whole life at work, I wish there was less work and more joy in the world... :(
Figure out how to do the work in less time. Once you figure it out, start proving it works. Once you've proven it works, and you are producing as much in eight hours as you previously were in twelve, AND you're producing in eight hours what every OTHER programmer in your shop is producing in twelve, start leaving on time. Don't try to fool yourself about these figures, either; they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
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Ah... but you misunderstood, or maybe I was not clear... I am not overworked... I was more curious if this was a normal practice or not, as at least one of my friends has fallen into it.
It is normal for a number of employers, especially those with "market-driven" development, i.e. whatever the marketing people see as must-have features have to be added in now, RIGHT now. Sometimes the marketing people are right about how fast these features must be present, but it is rare that a company will succeed if they are always trying to catch up with the edge; real innovation, not desperate imitation, is what drives success. Tell your "friend" that, unless he really REALLY believes his company is succeeding, he must seek and get a position with a more successfuly company.
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Figure out how to do the work in less time. Once you figure it out, start proving it works. Once you've proven it works, and you are producing as much in eight hours as you previously were in twelve, AND you're producing in eight hours what every OTHER programmer in your shop is producing in twelve, start leaving on time. Don't try to fool yourself about these figures, either; they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
cpkilekofp wrote:
they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
I'm glad that I don't have a boss. :) I still feel sorry for all the people like the OP who happen to have an unhealthy work environment.
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Normal or not its still the personal choice of the person in that position - moaning about it (or taking a poll on the matter) makes no difference. If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Steve_pqr wrote:
If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Try getting a little exercise, eat more fibre...maybe a little less coffee. There's no need to get so wound up over this.
Try not to take life to seriously. When all is done no one gets out alive anyway.
modified on Tuesday, November 4, 2008 12:04 PM
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cpkilekofp wrote:
they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
I'm glad that I don't have a boss. :) I still feel sorry for all the people like the OP who happen to have an unhealthy work environment.
Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
I'm glad that I don't have a boss. I still feel sorry for all the people like the OP who happen to have an unhealthy work environment.
I do, too. My current employer (the company) fosters a "balance between work and life" as part of its mission statement. I now work from home one day a week, and that is only because my department is responsible for critical operations that require immediate support in case of a problem, which means I can't take two days at home without risk to our department's mission, unlike other departments where programmers appear at work only two or three days a week. It's also very rare for me to work overtime, and while the mandate here is eight hours per day at work, that is often understood to include lunch, which makes for a seven-hour work day. I know it may sound odd to those who work, work, work, but in fact we are very productive, with a high level of reliability on our work product that is both expected and delivered. This is a difference between "market-driven" and "service-driven": we MUST maintain a level of service to our clients, and new features MUST take second place to deliverying the level of service required by our service agreement. It is a VERY different atmosphere from a startup or a software house. The levels of pay are lower, but the level of stress is MUCH lower. At my age, it's far better for me than the hell houses in which I used to work (I NEVER work 48-hour days anymore). But then, I did my time in the hell houses and learned how to make it work in the time I had, which eventually led me to this little bit of heaven.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
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El Corazon wrote:
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move.
Interesting. In every state of the US in which I've lived, if only ONE prospective employer gave evidence your boss had done that, you'd be living for a year (at least) at his (or his company's) expense. Even 25 years ago, most companies had wisely adopted the policy of simply confirming that an employee worked from this date to that date, unless they had something incontrovertibly positive to say about you, just to avoid the possiblity of a defamation lawsuit.
sorry, I phrased it poorly. he told ME daily of my poor performance and insulted me and my abilities and said no one would ever hire me because I was a bad employee. He did that with almost everyone. Other employers he said he would run trhem out of business if they hired me. When I started looking, I had a few friends that let me know what was happenning. I almost joined the navy in desperation to get away. But instead I stayed and changed the rules. I prepared to jump markets to where my boss had zero influence. He still tried, but my new boss actually laughed at the attempt. :) my old boss ended up hiring two people to replace me and still closed up shop several years later. After I led the way out many of the other employees started jumping ship either by location or industry.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Don't be afraid to have a discussion with your supervisor to get clarification about what is expected from you. He/She may not even know you are working that many hours. Make sure they know how many hours you are putting in (and that you don't mind putting in extra hours as needed periodically) and ask them what their expectations are. Most employers realize (and you can always remind them) that overworking their staff leads to shoddy work (you don't do your best work when you're exhausted), burnout and eventually the employee leaving. In my experience, most employers are willing to occasionally provide comp time (officially or unofficially) when a project takes an unexpectedly large number of overtime hours. . . Good luck! Jeff
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Figure out how to do the work in less time. Once you figure it out, start proving it works. Once you've proven it works, and you are producing as much in eight hours as you previously were in twelve, AND you're producing in eight hours what every OTHER programmer in your shop is producing in twelve, start leaving on time. Don't try to fool yourself about these figures, either; they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
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All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
Dave Parker wrote:
All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
Still, it allows you to truthfully say that you outproduced your coworkers and were penalized for it instead of being rewarded for it, which is one of the best reasons to leave a job there is. It's always good to have a GOOD reason for leaving - this one, especially, lets your prospective boss know your value up front.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
is it fair to be scared into working that many hours
No, it's not fair, but it's not unusual - it's just a free market. Having not much experience to put on your resume, and with all the recent downturn in business, they know you cannot do much. I'd simply be looking for another job in spare time, and the more time passes, the more valuable your resume becomes. At that time, your employee will also see it and ease the pressure, or raise your salary. That's the name of the game: a free market.
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12hrs a day is unproductive for a developer imho. However, I used to work ~10hr days and some on the weekends when I first started out but that was because I loved my job. From what you're describing it sounds to me like you're being exploited. I would keep your job for now but continue looking for another job.
Todd Smith