Overworked Junior [insert title here]
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Normal or not its still the personal choice of the person in that position - moaning about it (or taking a poll on the matter) makes no difference. If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Steve_pqr wrote:
If someone is in that position and don't like it then there's only one person going to change it!
Try getting a little exercise, eat more fibre...maybe a little less coffee. There's no need to get so wound up over this.
Try not to take life to seriously. When all is done no one gets out alive anyway.
modified on Tuesday, November 4, 2008 12:04 PM
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cpkilekofp wrote:
they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
I'm glad that I don't have a boss. :) I still feel sorry for all the people like the OP who happen to have an unhealthy work environment.
Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
I'm glad that I don't have a boss. I still feel sorry for all the people like the OP who happen to have an unhealthy work environment.
I do, too. My current employer (the company) fosters a "balance between work and life" as part of its mission statement. I now work from home one day a week, and that is only because my department is responsible for critical operations that require immediate support in case of a problem, which means I can't take two days at home without risk to our department's mission, unlike other departments where programmers appear at work only two or three days a week. It's also very rare for me to work overtime, and while the mandate here is eight hours per day at work, that is often understood to include lunch, which makes for a seven-hour work day. I know it may sound odd to those who work, work, work, but in fact we are very productive, with a high level of reliability on our work product that is both expected and delivered. This is a difference between "market-driven" and "service-driven": we MUST maintain a level of service to our clients, and new features MUST take second place to deliverying the level of service required by our service agreement. It is a VERY different atmosphere from a startup or a software house. The levels of pay are lower, but the level of stress is MUCH lower. At my age, it's far better for me than the hell houses in which I used to work (I NEVER work 48-hour days anymore). But then, I did my time in the hell houses and learned how to make it work in the time I had, which eventually led me to this little bit of heaven.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
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El Corazon wrote:
That was how my previous employer (accounting) lost me. 96 hour weeks for salaried position (no comp), and insults to my performance, and telling everyone in the business sector not to hire me if I tried to move.
Interesting. In every state of the US in which I've lived, if only ONE prospective employer gave evidence your boss had done that, you'd be living for a year (at least) at his (or his company's) expense. Even 25 years ago, most companies had wisely adopted the policy of simply confirming that an employee worked from this date to that date, unless they had something incontrovertibly positive to say about you, just to avoid the possiblity of a defamation lawsuit.
sorry, I phrased it poorly. he told ME daily of my poor performance and insulted me and my abilities and said no one would ever hire me because I was a bad employee. He did that with almost everyone. Other employers he said he would run trhem out of business if they hired me. When I started looking, I had a few friends that let me know what was happenning. I almost joined the navy in desperation to get away. But instead I stayed and changed the rules. I prepared to jump markets to where my boss had zero influence. He still tried, but my new boss actually laughed at the attempt. :) my old boss ended up hiring two people to replace me and still closed up shop several years later. After I led the way out many of the other employees started jumping ship either by location or industry.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Don't be afraid to have a discussion with your supervisor to get clarification about what is expected from you. He/She may not even know you are working that many hours. Make sure they know how many hours you are putting in (and that you don't mind putting in extra hours as needed periodically) and ask them what their expectations are. Most employers realize (and you can always remind them) that overworking their staff leads to shoddy work (you don't do your best work when you're exhausted), burnout and eventually the employee leaving. In my experience, most employers are willing to occasionally provide comp time (officially or unofficially) when a project takes an unexpectedly large number of overtime hours. . . Good luck! Jeff
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Figure out how to do the work in less time. Once you figure it out, start proving it works. Once you've proven it works, and you are producing as much in eight hours as you previously were in twelve, AND you're producing in eight hours what every OTHER programmer in your shop is producing in twelve, start leaving on time. Don't try to fool yourself about these figures, either; they have to convince your boss when he notices you leaving on time and asks "Why?"
All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
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All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
Dave Parker wrote:
All that usually leads to is being given more work/stress and jobs (releases, certain tests etc) that have to be done out of hours for no extra pay on top of the usual workday.
Still, it allows you to truthfully say that you outproduced your coworkers and were penalized for it instead of being rewarded for it, which is one of the best reasons to leave a job there is. It's always good to have a GOOD reason for leaving - this one, especially, lets your prospective boss know your value up front.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Squirrel Hacker wrote:
is it fair to be scared into working that many hours
No, it's not fair, but it's not unusual - it's just a free market. Having not much experience to put on your resume, and with all the recent downturn in business, they know you cannot do much. I'd simply be looking for another job in spare time, and the more time passes, the more valuable your resume becomes. At that time, your employee will also see it and ease the pressure, or raise your salary. That's the name of the game: a free market.
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12hrs a day is unproductive for a developer imho. However, I used to work ~10hr days and some on the weekends when I first started out but that was because I loved my job. From what you're describing it sounds to me like you're being exploited. I would keep your job for now but continue looking for another job.
Todd Smith
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This kind of post comes up every few weeks - my employer is mean, waaah! You chose to work there buddy I'm afraid, or at least I'm pretty sure he didn't come looking for you to personally give you a hard time. You have exactly 2 choices, stay or leave, its entirely up to you (and welcome to the real world!).
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
There's almost a third option, and that's to stay, but only play the game on your terms. It might get you fired, but if you're planning to leave anyway, that's no big deal. I've played hardball before, and I got what I wanted. I think once you accept that something has to change, or you're going to leave a company, you can take on riskier attitudes or options. Depending on the market though, there may be nothing you can do. If you know it's going to be a PITA for your employer to replace you, play that card. Whether or not you know you'll be okay after you leave, present it to the employer as if you are in charge of the situation, and it's not going to hurt you one bit if you go -- you can get another job easily. Unless you're under a contract, or local law prohibits, you're in a mutual agreement with your employer, and you can walk out at any time. I think some of the other posters here are right about management just pushing because they can. For various reasons, management-types do that sometimes. Sometimes it's for the bottom lines, sometimes it's for a power trip. If you let them know you're not in for that, they'll either respect that about you, or find someone willing to take their shit. If it's the latter, you probably don't want to be working for them anyway. I guess the bottom line is, if you're taken advantage of, it's your own fault.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Don't listen to anyone who tells you that working 12 hours a day is OK. They are either morons who talk empty talk and not work that much themselves or spineless losers with no personal life. You are in this for yourself, you have to watch out for your own good above anything else. I've been working in IT for about 3 - 4 years now and I've never been expected to work overtime for any significant amount of time. If there was a deadline that I had to meet, I would stay late and / or come on the weekend, but never had I have to do that for more then a couple of weeks at a time. I have never been forced into it. That is normal. Being expected to work overtime on constant bases EA style[^] is exploitation. What would I do: 1. See if the team is just in a crunch to meet a deadline or this is the norm. In any case decide for yourself if it is worth it. Money/benefits/personal satisfaction and growth opportunity should all be considered against the extra long hours. 2. Whatever the case might be, there might not be future for you in this company. If the company is in trouble or is restructuring, you have to figure out what is your chance of staying employed. Unfortunately, the most junior guys are cut first. They are generally not as productive, do not have the in depth product knowledge the more senior people do and are not as well connected. I say keep your options open, don't stop looking for a new job. If something good comes along don't hesitate to jump ship. Don't forget the company is looking for its own good and will not hesitate in laying you off if it is in the company's interest. You have to do the same. You would not want to give them 100%, not even consider looking for a new job and then all of the sudden you end up jobless in couple of months? If they have told you that there might not be a spot for you, that is a bad thing. It is different if they tell you that there are no guarantees or that there might potentially be a spot for you. If your manager uses a negative construct like "there might not be a spot" that usually signals there is trouble down the road.
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I am new to the whole work world, but working 12 hours a day as a junior developer (or a junior anything really) seems excessive to me, especially when your employer has said that there might not be a job for you in 3 months because there might be no work... Is that a scare tactic employers usually use on the new guys to make the most profit? How many people have fallen for that? Sure you can program and learn for many hours a day, reading and practising things, but is it fair to be scared into working that many hours at the lowest pay grade in your office?
Having been in the biz 30 years or so here are a few observations: If you're just starting out you should consider such extra hours as career investment. I say this because people just starting out (including me back in the day) don't know sh*t. You have an enormous learning curve in front of you. If you don't tackle it now you'll never be more than mediocre at best. If you've been at this a while and you're still a Junior you might ask yourself why. Lastly, there ARE abusive bosses out there and it is usually a function of their personality, not any business requirement. Andy