Chris M. Could you...
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... please clarify the licensing issues that were discussed last night? It's clear that a lot of us *think* that we know what is going on when we post code to CP. What actually is the situation, especially in regard to licenses like GPL, and requests for acknowledgement in about boxes? Is it possible to get a statement on this put in the FAQ for future reference? Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
I think Chris might be away for a couple of days. MS Australia trip.
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SIMON WALTON
SONORK ID 100.10024 -
... please clarify the licensing issues that were discussed last night? It's clear that a lot of us *think* that we know what is going on when we post code to CP. What actually is the situation, especially in regard to licenses like GPL, and requests for acknowledgement in about boxes? Is it possible to get a statement on this put in the FAQ for future reference? Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
IHMO, I think ultra-"free use" reading is more than what Chris intended. What he might have been trying to avoid was people using CP as an AD site for for-sale packages. I still think GPL isn't compatible with CP given that IMHO it is more geared toward professional developers. Lord knows, GPL and free is an oxymoron that has just gotten a good sales job. (When will I stop beating this dead horse... nobody knows).:rolleyes: A clarification would be nice. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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... please clarify the licensing issues that were discussed last night? It's clear that a lot of us *think* that we know what is going on when we post code to CP. What actually is the situation, especially in regard to licenses like GPL, and requests for acknowledgement in about boxes? Is it possible to get a statement on this put in the FAQ for future reference? Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
Can you point me to the discussion? I've been in and out all week so am getting only about 10% of what's been going on. We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. We do need a concrete statement so I'll bump this up the list. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Can you point me to the discussion? I've been in and out all week so am getting only about 10% of what's been going on. We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. We do need a concrete statement so I'll bump this up the list. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: but it's been held up in legal. I think you're giving the sheep out back too much responsibility here, Chris.... ;-D. -- Andrew.
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Can you point me to the discussion? I've been in and out all week so am getting only about 10% of what's been going on. We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. We do need a concrete statement so I'll bump this up the list. cheers, Chris Maunder
Hi Chris, It started in this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?select=263751&forumid=1159&app=50&fr=351#xx262893xx[^] and continued later with this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?select=263751&forumid=1159&app=50&fr=251#xx263024xx[^] Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
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Chris Maunder wrote: but it's been held up in legal. I think you're giving the sheep out back too much responsibility here, Chris.... ;-D. -- Andrew.
Hey - I was told they were the best... cheers, Chris Maunder
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Hi Chris, It started in this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?select=263751&forumid=1159&app=50&fr=351#xx262893xx[^] and continued later with this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?select=263751&forumid=1159&app=50&fr=251#xx263024xx[^] Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
Could you use the 'Get Link' link at the bottom of the message to get the link? The one you posted is a temp link that is now out of date. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Could you use the 'Get Link' link at the bottom of the message to get the link? The one you posted is a temp link that is now out of date. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Just tried it, didnt seem to do anything. Those others worked though, didnt they? Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
Right-click on the "[Get Link]" link, and select Copy Shortcut. Or edit the links you posted by changing the "select=" bit to "msg=" and deleting the "app=", "fr=", and "#" bits. (yes, this also would make a *great* FAQ topic IMHO... ;)) [edit] actually, that's wrong. the "select=" number is bogus; you'll need to extract the actual message number from between the 'x's after the "#" bit. Just use the [Get Link] i guess... :-O
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Shog9 Actually I use to find learning in bars when drinking really useful. It sort of makes a language liquid. - Colin Davies, Thinking in English?
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Could you use the 'Get Link' link at the bottom of the message to get the link? The one you posted is a temp link that is now out of date. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: Could you use the 'Get Link' link at the bottom of the message to get the link? The one you posted is a temp link that is now out of date. Well, I'll save someone the trouble and post the link: http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=263024#xx263024xx[^] Frank Bason Computer, Inc.
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Can you point me to the discussion? I've been in and out all week so am getting only about 10% of what's been going on. We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. We do need a concrete statement so I'll bump this up the list. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. I think it's important to state clearly that if the code published at CP comes with some sort of license then that license still applies. For example, if some code is under GPL, and it's posted at CP, it is still under GPL. There seems to missunderstanding that CP statement "overrides" the original code licensing. I believe that cannot be the case. It is not the "curtesy" to honour license, it's a requirement. If the author of the code says that you have to put his name in the About box, you must comply if you want to use his code. Similiar, if the code is GPL, you must consider it as such - CP sumission guidelines can not "cancel" GPL. If the license is not in line with CP submission rules, then such submission should be removed. But in no case the license can be made void by a fact of publishing code at CP. Some people say that it's hard to prove whether the code was used in a particular application and it's not easy to execute the licensing policy. But that doesn't mean that CP has to endorse the common theft mentality.
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IHMO, I think ultra-"free use" reading is more than what Chris intended. What he might have been trying to avoid was people using CP as an AD site for for-sale packages. I still think GPL isn't compatible with CP given that IMHO it is more geared toward professional developers. Lord knows, GPL and free is an oxymoron that has just gotten a good sales job. (When will I stop beating this dead horse... nobody knows).:rolleyes: A clarification would be nice. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: I still think GPL isn't compatible with CP given that IMHO it is more geared toward professional developers. I think GPL fits very well with CP submission guidelines since it does't restrict you from changing or distributing the code. It only requires you to expose the code that uses it. If that is no possible for you, then you should not use it. But one thing it sure - even if GPL would not be compatible with GPL the code is still under GPL. It might have to be removed from the site if there is an incompatibility, but you can not ignore the license just because it's been submitted at CP. License stays, always!. All you can do is to request the submission to be removed, but you can not make a code'a license void.
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Chris Maunder wrote: We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. I think it's important to state clearly that if the code published at CP comes with some sort of license then that license still applies. For example, if some code is under GPL, and it's posted at CP, it is still under GPL. There seems to missunderstanding that CP statement "overrides" the original code licensing. I believe that cannot be the case. It is not the "curtesy" to honour license, it's a requirement. If the author of the code says that you have to put his name in the About box, you must comply if you want to use his code. Similiar, if the code is GPL, you must consider it as such - CP sumission guidelines can not "cancel" GPL. If the license is not in line with CP submission rules, then such submission should be removed. But in no case the license can be made void by a fact of publishing code at CP. Some people say that it's hard to prove whether the code was used in a particular application and it's not easy to execute the licensing policy. But that doesn't mean that CP has to endorse the common theft mentality.
If you post your code on a site that requires you to grand a different license, then OF COURSE it overrides the license. The act of submitting the code means that you agree with the licensing requirements of the site. Even with GPL, the copyright holder is free to grant special licensing. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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If you post your code on a site that requires you to grand a different license, then OF COURSE it overrides the license. The act of submitting the code means that you agree with the licensing requirements of the site. Even with GPL, the copyright holder is free to grant special licensing. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: If you post your code on a site that requires you to grand a different license, then OF COURSE it overrides the license. Of course not, unless it is explicitly stated. But in that case it's just the same as changing the license. In any case, license that is in the code applies. If it doesn't, the only thing you can do is to remove the code with the incompatible license or change the license of the code until it is compatible with the site. There is no "override" thing, site's license and code license must be compatible.
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IHMO, I think ultra-"free use" reading is more than what Chris intended. What he might have been trying to avoid was people using CP as an AD site for for-sale packages. I still think GPL isn't compatible with CP given that IMHO it is more geared toward professional developers. Lord knows, GPL and free is an oxymoron that has just gotten a good sales job. (When will I stop beating this dead horse... nobody knows).:rolleyes: A clarification would be nice. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: GPL and free is an oxymoron that has just gotten a good sales job "Free" as in Section 5, sub-section A.4, par. 5 - 12. :rolleyes: -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"
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... please clarify the licensing issues that were discussed last night? It's clear that a lot of us *think* that we know what is going on when we post code to CP. What actually is the situation, especially in regard to licenses like GPL, and requests for acknowledgement in about boxes? Is it possible to get a statement on this put in the FAQ for future reference? Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
Ok, basically by posting code on CP, the author is agreeing that the code can be published by CodeProject (and only CodeProject) and that it is reasonable to assume that the developers that come here are going to use the code in the applications that they develop. The wise developers in the audience will also realise that the code posted here is provided with completely and absolutely no warranty whatsoever, and that no one (not CodeProject, Chris, Dave, the author, or anyone else) is providing any kind of warranty or guarantee for the code in any manner at all. What does this mean? Code provided here could potentially violate the GPL, the LGPL or other license agreements, patents, copyrights or other legal instruments, and no protection is offered to the consumer of this code (the reader) in any manner whatsoever. Any risk resulting from the use of this code, or your reading of the articles presenting this code is completely in your hands (the reader). Each and every author contributing to CodeProject has the right to place whatever restrictions they wish on their submissions, beyond the fact that they have consented to their work being published by CodeProject. You can make no assumption about your right to use the published code without receiving approval from the article's author, unless they have listed appropriate permissions in the code, or in the article in which it was published. So this is why Chris pointed out that the "rights of use" is tied up in legal, it's a hairy beast with 4 heads. But Chris is right, it needs to be higher up the list, ahead of new features and emoticons, but clearly behind site stability and Chris having a vacation :-D David
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Chris Maunder wrote: We do have a draft statement on use (not sure if this is what you are after) but it's been held up in legal. I think it's important to state clearly that if the code published at CP comes with some sort of license then that license still applies. For example, if some code is under GPL, and it's posted at CP, it is still under GPL. There seems to missunderstanding that CP statement "overrides" the original code licensing. I believe that cannot be the case. It is not the "curtesy" to honour license, it's a requirement. If the author of the code says that you have to put his name in the About box, you must comply if you want to use his code. Similiar, if the code is GPL, you must consider it as such - CP sumission guidelines can not "cancel" GPL. If the license is not in line with CP submission rules, then such submission should be removed. But in no case the license can be made void by a fact of publishing code at CP. Some people say that it's hard to prove whether the code was used in a particular application and it's not easy to execute the licensing policy. But that doesn't mean that CP has to endorse the common theft mentality.
George wrote: There seems to missunderstanding that CP statement "overrides" the original code licensing. I believe that cannot be the case. It is not the "curtesy" to honour license, it's a requirement. If the author of the code says that you have to put his name in the About box, you must comply if you want to use his code. Similiar, if the code is GPL, you must consider it as such - CP sumission guidelines can not "cancel" GPL. Unless he waives his rights. Since he is the author, and holder of the copyright, it is quite possible to do so. Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
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George wrote: There seems to missunderstanding that CP statement "overrides" the original code licensing. I believe that cannot be the case. It is not the "curtesy" to honour license, it's a requirement. If the author of the code says that you have to put his name in the About box, you must comply if you want to use his code. Similiar, if the code is GPL, you must consider it as such - CP sumission guidelines can not "cancel" GPL. Unless he waives his rights. Since he is the author, and holder of the copyright, it is quite possible to do so. Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.
Mr Morden wrote: Unless he waives his rights. Since he is the author, and holder of the copyright, it is quite possible to do so. You are grasping the straws here :laugh: Well, I'm tired of you lot, see the Dave's response[^], that should clear the things for ya ;)
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Ok, basically by posting code on CP, the author is agreeing that the code can be published by CodeProject (and only CodeProject) and that it is reasonable to assume that the developers that come here are going to use the code in the applications that they develop. The wise developers in the audience will also realise that the code posted here is provided with completely and absolutely no warranty whatsoever, and that no one (not CodeProject, Chris, Dave, the author, or anyone else) is providing any kind of warranty or guarantee for the code in any manner at all. What does this mean? Code provided here could potentially violate the GPL, the LGPL or other license agreements, patents, copyrights or other legal instruments, and no protection is offered to the consumer of this code (the reader) in any manner whatsoever. Any risk resulting from the use of this code, or your reading of the articles presenting this code is completely in your hands (the reader). Each and every author contributing to CodeProject has the right to place whatever restrictions they wish on their submissions, beyond the fact that they have consented to their work being published by CodeProject. You can make no assumption about your right to use the published code without receiving approval from the article's author, unless they have listed appropriate permissions in the code, or in the article in which it was published. So this is why Chris pointed out that the "rights of use" is tied up in legal, it's a hairy beast with 4 heads. But Chris is right, it needs to be higher up the list, ahead of new features and emoticons, but clearly behind site stability and Chris having a vacation :-D David
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Mr Morden wrote: Unless he waives his rights. Since he is the author, and holder of the copyright, it is quite possible to do so. You are grasping the straws here :laugh: Well, I'm tired of you lot, see the Dave's response[^], that should clear the things for ya ;)
I dont know why that is grasping at straws. It's a simple statement of fact. Anyone can waive their rights, provided their countries legislation allows them to do so. This applies to software licences, or signing a form before you go on a rollercoaster. Cheers The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest.