Flame 1: Che (not C#)
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Hi there, In response to the desperate call of the wild to have a flame, Allow me to raise some points: Being computer science and IT students and professionals, does the 'probelm solving skills' and other skills that we boast about help us in any way to strive for Justice in this world? Does the spirit of debugging systems and applications extend to interest us into debugging the world and finding or at least struggling to an ideal that we might know or not? I was watching a documentry about El Che: Ernesto Che Guevara. The (apparently) famous revolutionary who became aware of the failure of capitalism and the soviet communism to provide real justice. A medical doctor who abandod a life of luxury, same with castro a laywer who abandod the easy life, and finally Bin Laden who, to say the least, is an interesting character in the sense of abandoning the luxury of his wealthy family and the girls of Monaco and Italy he used to visit. Why did they abandon the luxury to pursue hardship for an idea they believed in? I personally disagree with all there they ideas they strived for, But i have to respect the calibre of men and women who are willing to die for their ideas. Karl Marx died spreading a messed ideology that says ur life ends like any cockroach u step on. It doesn't matter what you did in this life, so why did he leave the luxury to hardship? I ask to know, and to answer un-answered quetions i have: Whenever we have lecture at school about justice or kids dying in Iraq there is complete apathy in the eng and cs faculties. I don't remeber a leader who is an Eng or a CS guy, all have some artsie-background or something like that. Why are we so apathetic? Does our field eradicate if not at least isolate our human feelings and desire for a better world to materialize into this life for a search? Or is this all 60's pot talk? Let us know, Geeks especially are requested to step forward and talk :confused: small minds dicuss things and ppl, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas ( or something like that ;)
aboshalabi wrote: have to respect the calibre of men and women who are willing to die for their ideas Does your respect extend to Nazi SS divisions? They were tough warriors, ready to die for fuhrer and the 3rd reich ideas. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
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Ryan Johnston wrote: I personally know that if I get all worked up about something I have no control over, it does me no good. It just gets in the way of the task at hand (what ever that task may be). Are you suggesting that in order to reduce your stress level, it's best to just not give a shit about the rest of the world? J
jamiehale wrote: Are you suggesting that in order to reduce your stress level, it's best to just not give a sh*t about the rest of the world? i don't know if he's suggesting it, but i'm agreeing with it. "don't worry - be happy" -c
Though the cough, hough and hiccough so unsought would plough me through, enough that I o'er life's dark lough my thorough course pursue. --Stuart Kidd
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jamiehale wrote: Are you suggesting that in order to reduce your stress level, it's best to just not give a sh*t about the rest of the world? i don't know if he's suggesting it, but i'm agreeing with it. "don't worry - be happy" -c
Though the cough, hough and hiccough so unsought would plough me through, enough that I o'er life's dark lough my thorough course pursue. --Stuart Kidd
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Chris Losinger wrote: i don't know if he's suggesting it, but i'm agreeing with it. You, and most of the industrialized world. Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? J
jamiehale wrote: Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? no, there's no wonder. they hate us for what we are, not what we do. it's true cause GWB said so. -c
Though the cough, hough and hiccough so unsought would plough me through, enough that I o'er life's dark lough my thorough course pursue. --Stuart Kidd
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Ryan Johnston wrote: I personally know that if I get all worked up about something I have no control over, it does me no good. It just gets in the way of the task at hand (what ever that task may be). Are you suggesting that in order to reduce your stress level, it's best to just not give a shit about the rest of the world? J
So it is better to increase my stress level, and end up with the same result? There is absolutly nothing I can do that will change the mind of millions of other idiots. As for not giving a sh*t about the rest of the world: That is entirely untrue. I care a lot (and I try to keep fairly well informed), and when ever there is an opportunity to do something that will help others I will. Those opportunities are few and far between, so I don't sit around worrying about it. Ryan Johnston
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aboshalabi wrote: Why are we so apathetic? Does our field eradicate if not at least isolate our human feelings and desire for a better world to materialize into this life for a search? I don't think it's our field at all that makes us apathetic. I think it's the advance of technology in general. Technology means that more stuff can be made faster and better. And that means that marketing companies have to push harder to create in us artificial needs, otherwise, we fail to progress, and they don't make any money. And that means that in order for us to feel fulfilled, we need to work hard enough and fast enough to make enough money so that we can buy the stuff we're told we need. It's the fear that if we don't do our jobs well enough or fast enough, someone else will push us out. That fear threatens the way of life that advertising has convinced us we need, and makes us work those extra hours. It makes us not care about anything other than what directly affects our "way of life". It's not our field that makes us this way, but we sure are adding to it. J
jamiehale wrote: marketing companies have to push harder to create in us artificial needs I really don't agree with this. I don't feel like I need modern products. I want them (which is a big difference). I haven't been brain washed. Most marketing is done by a bunch of retarded morons who couldn't get a real job (have you seen advertising?). Basicly I'm tired of hearing this line. Sure you are told that you need things. You are an individual. No one is in control of your decisions. No one is making you work those extra hours. We choose our pain. I will work harder if I think I can get more out of it. jamiehale wrote: It makes us not care about anything other than what directly affects our "way of life". I disagree again. Human nature keeps the majority of people focused on their "way of life". It isn't advertising. It is us. We, human beings, are the problem. Every one wants to blame someone else. As far as I can tell that is the root of most conflicts. I can't change human nature, so I can't change the world. The best I can do is try to lead a good life, and help others where I can. Ryan Johnston
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aboshalabi wrote: have to respect the calibre of men and women who are willing to die for their ideas Does your respect extend to Nazi SS divisions? They were tough warriors, ready to die for fuhrer and the 3rd reich ideas. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
There is a difference between them. The people he mentioned were people who were risking themselves for their own ideas. The Nazi SS divisions were risking themselves for someone else's ideas. I personally don't have much respect for either group, but I recognize the distinction. Ryan Johnston
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There is a difference between them. The people he mentioned were people who were risking themselves for their own ideas. The Nazi SS divisions were risking themselves for someone else's ideas. I personally don't have much respect for either group, but I recognize the distinction. Ryan Johnston
Ryan Johnston wrote: The Nazi SS divisions were risking themselves for someone else's ideas. Really? They were the most fanatic types, surely fighting for ideas they believed. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
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Chris Losinger wrote: i don't know if he's suggesting it, but i'm agreeing with it. You, and most of the industrialized world. Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? J
jamiehale wrote: Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? Damn ungrateful
bits. Straighten up, or i shallbyteyou!---
Shog9 Actually I use to find learning in bars when drinking really useful. It sort of makes a language liquid. - Colin Davies, Thinking in English?
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Ryan Johnston wrote: The Nazi SS divisions were risking themselves for someone else's ideas. Really? They were the most fanatic types, surely fighting for ideas they believed. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Oh, I agree that they believed in them. But the difference, in my oppinion, is that they were the duped by propaganda, and charismatic leaders into what they believed, rather than being the leaders themselves (as the other people mentioned are). So in my view they were just slavish followers of someone else's ideas (though they should still be held accountable for their own actions, in the end we all have choices). Ryan Johnston
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jamiehale wrote: Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? Damn ungrateful
bits. Straighten up, or i shallbyteyou!---
Shog9 Actually I use to find learning in bars when drinking really useful. It sort of makes a language liquid. - Colin Davies, Thinking in English?
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Ryan Johnston
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Oh, I agree that they believed in them. But the difference, in my oppinion, is that they were the duped by propaganda, and charismatic leaders into what they believed, rather than being the leaders themselves (as the other people mentioned are). So in my view they were just slavish followers of someone else's ideas (though they should still be held accountable for their own actions, in the end we all have choices). Ryan Johnston
Ryan Johnston wrote: But the difference, in my oppinion, is that they were the duped by propaganda Just like the followers of Guevara and Castro. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
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jamiehale wrote: Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? Damn ungrateful
bits. Straighten up, or i shallbyteyou!---
Shog9 Actually I use to find learning in bars when drinking really useful. It sort of makes a language liquid. - Colin Davies, Thinking in English?
Shog9 wrote: i shall byte you! Roll them left, then roll them right. :) Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
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Ryan Johnston wrote: But the difference, in my oppinion, is that they were the duped by propaganda Just like the followers of Guevara and Castro. Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Yep, I agree completely. Ryan Johnston
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Chris Losinger wrote: i don't know if he's suggesting it, but i'm agreeing with it. You, and most of the industrialized world. Is there really and wonder why certain bits of the planet we neglect despise us? J
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jamiehale wrote: marketing companies have to push harder to create in us artificial needs I really don't agree with this. I don't feel like I need modern products. I want them (which is a big difference). I haven't been brain washed. Most marketing is done by a bunch of retarded morons who couldn't get a real job (have you seen advertising?). Basicly I'm tired of hearing this line. Sure you are told that you need things. You are an individual. No one is in control of your decisions. No one is making you work those extra hours. We choose our pain. I will work harder if I think I can get more out of it. jamiehale wrote: It makes us not care about anything other than what directly affects our "way of life". I disagree again. Human nature keeps the majority of people focused on their "way of life". It isn't advertising. It is us. We, human beings, are the problem. Every one wants to blame someone else. As far as I can tell that is the root of most conflicts. I can't change human nature, so I can't change the world. The best I can do is try to lead a good life, and help others where I can. Ryan Johnston
Ryan Johnston wrote: I don't feel like I need modern products. I want them (which is a big difference). How so? Why do you want them? For your comfort? For your entertainment? For satisfying your needs? Ryan Johnston wrote: I will work harder if I think I can get more out of it. More what? More stuff? Think of how your life would change if you had no TV, no radio, no CD player, no automobile, no computer, no telephone. Banks, that are encouraging people to use their ATMs instead of their branches, are a perfect example. Using a human teller is a pleasant and arguably natural social experience, but it costs the banks too much in salaries and insurance. They cut costs by setting up ATMs and firing employees. But they need to make people want to use the ATMs instead, so they pummel us with data on how much faster you can do your banking, and how you can get cash anywhere - how convenient it will be for you. Of course, we still have to line up for them. We pay extra fees. We no longer get the benefit of human interaction (unless you chat with the people in line), what's more we get alienated from the process since we have no recourse if the machine crashes, or breaks, or doesn't do what we ask. So really, ATMs are not good for us, but the banks have manufactured the need for them in us. But I like using the ATM, you say. I don't have to waste time talking to the teller. I can do my transactions fast. Sure, but you're a computer geek (no offense - I'm one too) and these things seem pretty natural to us. For the majority of people, having the ability to explain to a compassionate human who's job it is to listen and try to help is far more desirable. But they're being forced to change. They're being forced to put up with a "technologized" banking industry so that the banks can squeeze an extra half-percent profit gain and the share-holders can make a few extra pennies in dividends. Plus, we're being encouraged to be anti-social and efficient. Remember the last time you were stuck behind someone paying a whole bunch of bills at the ATM. Remember how frustrated you were, becuase you had to get back to work, or get home to watch TV, or get to McDonalds to eat dinner, or whatever. You came to the ATM to be fast, but this loser isn't as good at this as I am. We actually take pride in the fact that we can do our banking faster than others. Have you ever felt like just pushing them aside and saying, "Look, lemme do it for you..." This is another
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Ryan Johnston wrote: I don't feel like I need modern products. I want them (which is a big difference). How so? Why do you want them? For your comfort? For your entertainment? For satisfying your needs? Ryan Johnston wrote: I will work harder if I think I can get more out of it. More what? More stuff? Think of how your life would change if you had no TV, no radio, no CD player, no automobile, no computer, no telephone. Banks, that are encouraging people to use their ATMs instead of their branches, are a perfect example. Using a human teller is a pleasant and arguably natural social experience, but it costs the banks too much in salaries and insurance. They cut costs by setting up ATMs and firing employees. But they need to make people want to use the ATMs instead, so they pummel us with data on how much faster you can do your banking, and how you can get cash anywhere - how convenient it will be for you. Of course, we still have to line up for them. We pay extra fees. We no longer get the benefit of human interaction (unless you chat with the people in line), what's more we get alienated from the process since we have no recourse if the machine crashes, or breaks, or doesn't do what we ask. So really, ATMs are not good for us, but the banks have manufactured the need for them in us. But I like using the ATM, you say. I don't have to waste time talking to the teller. I can do my transactions fast. Sure, but you're a computer geek (no offense - I'm one too) and these things seem pretty natural to us. For the majority of people, having the ability to explain to a compassionate human who's job it is to listen and try to help is far more desirable. But they're being forced to change. They're being forced to put up with a "technologized" banking industry so that the banks can squeeze an extra half-percent profit gain and the share-holders can make a few extra pennies in dividends. Plus, we're being encouraged to be anti-social and efficient. Remember the last time you were stuck behind someone paying a whole bunch of bills at the ATM. Remember how frustrated you were, becuase you had to get back to work, or get home to watch TV, or get to McDonalds to eat dinner, or whatever. You came to the ATM to be fast, but this loser isn't as good at this as I am. We actually take pride in the fact that we can do our banking faster than others. Have you ever felt like just pushing them aside and saying, "Look, lemme do it for you..." This is another
jamiehale wrote: Since the 70s, anthropologists have started to discover that primitive man (humans, not penis-owning people) lived in a society of mutual respect for one's fellow humans and for the natural world as well. There seems to have been gender equality. No organized crime. No wars And then, suddenly, white anglo-saxon penis-owning men took over the civilization and things get really hairy ;P Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.