Regime Change Revisited
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This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums. :suss:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums.
you should have never taught her any computer skills, now see what you've done!
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums.
you should have never taught her any computer skills, now see what you've done!
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Oh, she already had the skills, but it gets worse. She's teaching others. :suss:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Hamas are fanatics. They are ruthless in their control of the entire infrastructure in Gaza. They are hoodlums as suggested by Mustafa in a recent Soapbox posting [^] which is a reasonable position. But the Gazan's elected Hamas. They may not have a traditional structure of Government you find in nearly all western and non-western governments and as you say "incursion could continue on for some time" which raises the question of how much harm needs to be inflicted on ordinary Palestinian civilians before sustained shouts of "genocide" is heard worldwide. But also will this be an invite for other Arab states to get involved by committing some armed response in defence of their Arab brethren in Gaza. The Palestinians on the West Bank appear to be concerned and agitated, so the potential to widen the issue is already there. Calls for ceasefire have already been made and rejected by both sides. But there will come a time when both sides would have had enough of fighting.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Yeah, we all know how well that worked out...
That wasn't the fault of the invasion force, but the idiots in the Bush administration. Iraq's regime change could have been accomplished long before Iran could slip enough forces into the country, if there had been an all out commitment to boots on the ground.
73Zeppelin wrote:
When a country lacks a centralized and clearly-defined leadership you get anarchy: Iraq, Palestine, etc...
Or you get Germany, and Japan. The difference, I think, is that Germany and Japan were defeated, knew they were defeated, and had no allies to send them men or machines. Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable. But the concept that nothing is accomplished by force is given the lie by history - as the Georgians or the Tibetans (or the Uighur), if you don't believe me. ;)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Or you get Germany, and Japan.
That's because they had no resources that you required. So, having set up democratic government in each country, restored their economies, provided defence against the USSR and China, you largely left them to their own devices.
Oakman wrote:
Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable.
All of the USA repeats to itself, 5 times a day (facing in your direction of choice), "We do not need their oil, we do not need their oil, we do not need their oil.". Once convinced of this fact, turn your incredible ingenuity (no, I am not being sarcastic) and your vast resources to providing alternatives and to re-building your technological advantage over the rest of the world. No need to secure oil supplies, so no need to interfere in their internal affairs. (As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims. As Stan said: it's just Arabs fighting Arabs. With the implied/stated "Who cares?".) After a few years, the diplomatic and economic standing of the USA should have improved to what it was in the 40s and 50s. As for Israel, why does the USA involve itself? It is a UN problem, the UN set up Israel, leave it to the UN to defend. (After all, one could say: it's just Semites fighting Semites.)
Bob Emmett
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Don't forget that Israel's single biggest supporter is the US, whether its arms, money, bailouts or political pressure, even the UN, the US has used its right to Veto for Israel a great many number of times.
Of course it is. Israel in return has been a faithful ally, at least as much as the UK and certainly more than France, Germany, Australia or Canada. Can you imagine any other country in the world agreeing not to respond when Saddam Hussein bombed it with scud missiles? Can you imagine the all-out war that could have ensued, if Israel had returned fire? And remember please that the results of all out war with Israel have, as an ultimate conclusion, nuclear war.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Or you get Germany, and Japan.
That's because they had no resources that you required. So, having set up democratic government in each country, restored their economies, provided defence against the USSR and China, you largely left them to their own devices.
Oakman wrote:
Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable.
All of the USA repeats to itself, 5 times a day (facing in your direction of choice), "We do not need their oil, we do not need their oil, we do not need their oil.". Once convinced of this fact, turn your incredible ingenuity (no, I am not being sarcastic) and your vast resources to providing alternatives and to re-building your technological advantage over the rest of the world. No need to secure oil supplies, so no need to interfere in their internal affairs. (As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims. As Stan said: it's just Arabs fighting Arabs. With the implied/stated "Who cares?".) After a few years, the diplomatic and economic standing of the USA should have improved to what it was in the 40s and 50s. As for Israel, why does the USA involve itself? It is a UN problem, the UN set up Israel, leave it to the UN to defend. (After all, one could say: it's just Semites fighting Semites.)
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
That's because they had no resources that you required
You really don't know much about WWII, do you? Most of the stars of both the Russian and American space programs were German. Patton was diverted fron going into Berlin long before the Russians could get there so he could grab as much of the industrial and scientific real estate as possible.
Bob Emmett wrote:
As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims
But I do care. I have longed believed that the U.S. would be better off focussing its attention on itself rather than trying to play world cop. (You are a perfect example of the kind of presumably educated person who blames the U.S. when it does try to make the world better and when it doesn't.) Since not trying to keep shi'a and sunni from killing each other is cheaper and saves American lives, I stongly prefer not interferring in Middle Eastern countries' death matches. However, I'm an equal opportunity ignorer. It doesn't matter whether they're just arabs, or just europeans, or just asians, they shouldn't be the U.S's problem.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
a faithful ally, at least as much as the UK
Well, neither of us has any other alternative. Britain wants an 'independent' nuclear deterrent. Israel wants continued existence. Your wish is our command!
Bob Emmett
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Are you also going to demand that the Normans go back to France and leave Britain to the Celts? Should all the Huns in Hungary head back towards Mongolia? Should Rome be given back to the Etruscans? For that matter should the larger area known as Palestine be restored to the decendants of the countries of Judea and Gallilee?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I am not suggesting that Israelis be moved anywhere, only suggesting that the UN pencil could be inverted and the arbitrary line (drawn within living memory - unlike your examples) erased.
Oakman wrote:
demand that the Normans go back to France
No, Scandinavia.
Oakman wrote:
leave Britain to the Celts
Certainly not! The Celts would be sent packing to the Iberian peninsular. Picts rule, OK!
Bob Emmett
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Bob Emmett wrote:
That's because they had no resources that you required
You really don't know much about WWII, do you? Most of the stars of both the Russian and American space programs were German. Patton was diverted fron going into Berlin long before the Russians could get there so he could grab as much of the industrial and scientific real estate as possible.
Bob Emmett wrote:
As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims
But I do care. I have longed believed that the U.S. would be better off focussing its attention on itself rather than trying to play world cop. (You are a perfect example of the kind of presumably educated person who blames the U.S. when it does try to make the world better and when it doesn't.) Since not trying to keep shi'a and sunni from killing each other is cheaper and saves American lives, I stongly prefer not interferring in Middle Eastern countries' death matches. However, I'm an equal opportunity ignorer. It doesn't matter whether they're just arabs, or just europeans, or just asians, they shouldn't be the U.S's problem.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You really don't know much about WWII, do you?
No, I was hiding under the stairs as the bombers came over. :)
Oakman wrote:
Most of the stars of both the Russian and American space programs were German.
I was referring to physical resources, not intellectual. You assume that I am educated, and yet imply that I am unaware of Tom Lehrer! "Nazi, Schmazi", says Wernher von Braun.
Oakman wrote:
You are a perfect example of the kind of presumably educated person who blames the U.S. when it does try to make the world better and when it doesn't.
Not true. And but poorly educated, I'm afraid.
Bob Emmett
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Oakman wrote:
You really don't know much about WWII, do you?
No, I was hiding under the stairs as the bombers came over. :)
Oakman wrote:
Most of the stars of both the Russian and American space programs were German.
I was referring to physical resources, not intellectual. You assume that I am educated, and yet imply that I am unaware of Tom Lehrer! "Nazi, Schmazi", says Wernher von Braun.
Oakman wrote:
You are a perfect example of the kind of presumably educated person who blames the U.S. when it does try to make the world better and when it doesn't.
Not true. And but poorly educated, I'm afraid.
Bob Emmett
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
But the Gazan's elected Hamas.
Only because of the rampant corruption of Fatah X|
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
Only because of the rampant corruption of Fatah
Correct. The assumption was that anything was better than Fatah. Boy were they wrong.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Bob Emmett wrote:
You assume that I am educated
Presumed, not assumed.
Bob Emmett wrote:
I am unaware of Tom Lehrer
Better you should know about Arthur Rudolph.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bob Emmett wrote:
Your wish is our command!
Oh please.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Bob Emmett wrote:
Your wish is our command
Oakman wrote:
Oh please.
Since 1956, how often have we stood up to the USA? Harold Macmillan used the analogy of Britain being to USA as Greece was to the Roman Empire. This was taken as referring to Rome's supposed reliance upon Greek learning, culture, and experience of Empire. But Macmillan had had a classical education, and knew that the reality of the relationship was subservience to a greater power that had its own agenda.
Bob Emmett
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Trust you are not suggesting that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist or a potential terrorist, as you could not be more wrong. Just as wrong as MacArthy was in suggesting that those with left-learning tendencies were Communists. You have Democrats and Republicans in your Senate. Some of them are die-hard Capitalists, but they are not ALL die-hard Capitalists so it would also be inappropriate to say that ALL Americans are die-hard Capitalists as that would be just as wrong as suggesting that all of Islam's followers are radicals. Thus I contend my comments were not meaningless nor vapid.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Trust you are not suggesting that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist or a potential terrorist, as you could not be more wrong.
It is absolutly meaningless to suppose anything one way or another on the issue. Their society, their culture, their religion is generating international terrorism. That is the issue, that is the only issue. I have absolutely no power at all to solve their problems. Only they can do that. All I can do is expect to be defended against their lunatics by what ever means necessary.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Just as wrong as MacArthy was in suggesting that those with left-learning tendencies were Communists.
McCarthy was absolutey correct. The USSR had tremendous influence on both our government and other institutions and had for a very long time. He is one of my heroes.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
You have Democrats and Republicans in your Senate. Some of them are die-hard Capitalists, but they are not ALL die-hard Capitalists so it would also be inappropriate to say that ALL Americans are die-hard Capitalists as that would be just as wrong as suggesting that all of Islam's followers are radicals.
Are you comparing capitalism to terrorism?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I am not suggesting that Israelis be moved anywhere, only suggesting that the UN pencil could be inverted and the arbitrary line (drawn within living memory - unlike your examples) erased.
Oakman wrote:
demand that the Normans go back to France
No, Scandinavia.
Oakman wrote:
leave Britain to the Celts
Certainly not! The Celts would be sent packing to the Iberian peninsular. Picts rule, OK!
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
The Celts would be sent packing to the Iberian peninsular. Picts rule, OK!
When the hell did that happen?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
There is absolutely no difference what so ever in Israel defending itself today and Britain defending itself in 1940.
Britain was a established sovereign country that had declared war on Germany. Germany was entitled to defend itself against the might of the British Empire. Modern Israel is an invented country, arbitrarily imposed by the UN drawing a line on the map of Palestine, and largely populated by immigrants of the Jewish faith. To some extent I can understand the UN wishing to provide a Jewish homeland (most of the Nations had turned away Jews seeking refuge from the pogroms and the holocaust, possibly this salved their collective conscience) but the acts of terrorism between Arabs and Jews in the preceding decades should have given them pause.
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
Modern Israel is an invented country, arbitrarily imposed by the UN drawing a line on the map of Palestine, and largely populated by immigrants of the Jewish faith.
An invented country that promotes western values and principles such as democracy and liberty. They are an avowed allie. To abandon them or to in any way weaken their position against a culture that has no respect for those principles would be the greatest betrayal of our civilization in all of history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Trust you are not suggesting that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist or a potential terrorist, as you could not be more wrong.
It is absolutly meaningless to suppose anything one way or another on the issue. Their society, their culture, their religion is generating international terrorism. That is the issue, that is the only issue. I have absolutely no power at all to solve their problems. Only they can do that. All I can do is expect to be defended against their lunatics by what ever means necessary.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Just as wrong as MacArthy was in suggesting that those with left-learning tendencies were Communists.
McCarthy was absolutey correct. The USSR had tremendous influence on both our government and other institutions and had for a very long time. He is one of my heroes.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
You have Democrats and Republicans in your Senate. Some of them are die-hard Capitalists, but they are not ALL die-hard Capitalists so it would also be inappropriate to say that ALL Americans are die-hard Capitalists as that would be just as wrong as suggesting that all of Islam's followers are radicals.
Are you comparing capitalism to terrorism?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Bob Emmett wrote:
Your wish is our command
Oakman wrote:
Oh please.
Since 1956, how often have we stood up to the USA? Harold Macmillan used the analogy of Britain being to USA as Greece was to the Roman Empire. This was taken as referring to Rome's supposed reliance upon Greek learning, culture, and experience of Empire. But Macmillan had had a classical education, and knew that the reality of the relationship was subservience to a greater power that had its own agenda.
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
Rome's supposed reliance
You think otherwise?
Bob Emmett wrote:
reality of the relationship was subservience to a greater power that had its own agenda
It might be worthwhile to note that the Eastern Roman Empire which thought of itself not as "Byzantine" but as Roman and which lasted intact throughout the dark ages and was not extinguished until 40 years before Columbus bumped into Central America on his way to India, spoke not Latin, but Greek. Greece, of course, was never a power, though Athens did briefly rule the Aegean. And yet its civilization not only influenced both the Macedonians and the Romans, but Britain and America, both.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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digital man wrote:
The Palestinians in Gaza? Hardly captive:
digital man wrote:
Starved?
"the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html[^]
digital man wrote:
Brutal slaughter?
"As Israeli warplanes continue to bomb Gaza, attention is turning to the role of American-made weapons in the deadly attacks, which have now killed over 400 and wounded 2000, including many civilians." http://rawstory.com/news/2008/CNN_U.S._weapons_create_Gaza_civilian_0102.html[^]
digital man wrote:
Apart from the fact that is not the correct quote
whos quoting?
digital man wrote:
make peace with people that don't want peace? They just want to eradicate Israel.
we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable comp
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Stan Shannon wrote:
He is one of my heroes.
You have no shame, either.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You have no shame, either
I don't let the leftist define for me who my heroes should be. McCarthy was absolutely correct. He was trying to defend his nation from a very real threat.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.