Irwin N. Graulich: The Gaza Strip-Tease

[Stan Shannon]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Would you care to expand on exactly what Europeans have not done or learnt properly since WWII, and by whose yardstick are you measuring it?

The lesson that Europeans took away from WWII was that government did not have enough power. Clearly the only thing that could stop another holocaust was the concentration of even more power into the hands of really, really nice people who could go about convincing Europeans that they were all a bunch of scum bags who needed to be ashamed of every last aspect of their civilization, traditions and culture (except for the ones approved of by the state, of course).

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Stan Shannon wrote:

government did not have enough power.

Three questions for you Stan. 1. What power do you think that American Governments have that Governments from Britain, France, Germany, Spain ... do not? 2. Is this the yardstick to measure that, or have you some other test that equates as a yardstick? 3. What should European Governments individually or collectively do to rectify such shortcomings?

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

For any practical purpose, it is a single monolithic organization.

Yep, Greece and Switzerland, Finland and Bosnia - all the same.

Stan Shannon wrote:

happily stereotype jerkwater towns.

The only town I talked about was yours. The small town I live in is filled with enlightened souls. Don't get me wrong. I even think there are intellectuals in Indiana. Unfortunately the last time I went through the state, both of them were on vacation.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Lost User]

This is not a serious analysis of the Palestinian problem, he is merely preaching to the converted.

Ilíon quoted:

In fact, Europe learned absolutely nothing from WWII. Instead of learning that decent, moral nations must "fight evil," the Europeans learned that "fighting is evil."

Europe (both sides) learned what it was like to be on the receiving end of a war of attrition. Had the USA experienced that lesson, they, too, might have decided that "fighting is evil".

Country Population Military Deaths Civilian Deaths
Perpetrators
France 41,700,000 217,600 267,000
Germany 69,623,000 5,533,000 1,540,000
Italy 44,394,000 301,400 145,100
Japan 71,380,000 2,120,000 580,000
UK 47,760,000 382,700 67,100

Dragged in
USA 131,028,000 416,800 1,700
USSR 168,500,000 10,700,000 11,400,000

(Apologies to all the unmentioned countries that were also dragged in on either side.)

Source: World War 2 Casualties[^] Not to mention the destruction of each nation's infrastructure and economy. Does USA's lack of activity re Germany, Japan and the USSR during the 1930s indicate that the USA was not then a "decent, moral, nation" - or were they not seen as being "evil"? Possibly why we were anxious to avoid WW2: World War 1 Casualties[^]

Bob Emmett

[Stan Shannon]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

. What power do you think that American Governments have that Governments from Britain, France, Germany, Spain ... do not?

Well none, subsequent to our take over and occupation by european political tyranny. However, before that, the US governmetn had virtually no power to affect society or culture at all. That was all managed at the state and local levels of our society.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Is this the yardstick to measure that, or have you some other test that equates as a yardstick?

I have no idea what any of that means.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

What should European Governments individually or collectively do to rectify such shortcomings?

Immdediately abandon all forms of collectivist government and reform your governments around Jeffersonian and free market, principles. In short, accept the fact that you have been wrong all along, the American model has always been superior. Once you have done that, maybe our occupiers will see the errors of their way and voluntarily release us from our bondage.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

Yep, Greece and Switzerland, Finland and Bosnia - all the same.

Pretty much.

Oakman wrote:

The small town I live in is filled with enlightened souls.

So is mine. We just happen to believe that enligtenment does not necessarily mean universal agreement.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[73Zeppelin]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Oakman wrote: Yep, Greece and Switzerland, Finland and Bosnia - all the same. Pretty much.

Yeah - "pretty much" not the same at all... You should get out more.

[Tim Craig]

Oakman wrote:

Stan's, of course.

That's not a yardstick. That's not even the short end of a broken ruler.

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Immdediately abandon all forms of collectivist government and reform your governments around Jeffersonian and free market, principles. In short, accept the fact that you have been wrong all along, the American model has always been superior. Once you have done that, maybe our occupiers will see the errors of their way and voluntarily release us from our bondage.

Thank you for making my day. I suppose it's cruel to laugh at insanity, but I can't help it.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

73Zeppelin wrote:

You should get out more.

He's far too terrified of the world to ever experience it.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

You should count casualties, not just deaths which are always skewed by the quality of medical care available. However, you seem not to grasp that when a soldier dies, a civilian family is affected. To imply that because the U.S. incurred almost exclusively military deaths, its civilian population remained untouched suggests a need for more thought. Most of Americans who died had been farmers, shopkeepers, mechanics, and teachers only months before. Those soldiers who survived still knew what it was like to see their best friends die in front of them and they did not forget when two years later they returned to their civilian careers. Nor do I mean to suggest that this was any less true for the Brits, Germans, or Russians.

Bob Emmett wrote:

Europe (both sides) learned what it was like to be on the receiving end of a war of attrition

In WWII, only the Russians fought a war of attrition and that only at the battle of Stalingrad. Both Blitzkrieg and its later adaptation by Patton with the Red Ball Express, and, to some extent, Montgomery, are the antithesis of a war of attrition.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Lost User]

Not wishing to be rude, but you have not stated anything at all. Why? Well... You said, "Europeans did take away precisely the wrong lessons from WWII." then "The lesson that Europeans took away from WWII was that government did not have enough power" and now you say ...

Stan Shannon wrote:

Well none, subsequent to our take over and occupation by european political tyranny. However, before that, the US governmetn had virtually no power to affect society or culture at all. That was all managed at the state and local levels of our society.

then

Stan Shannon wrote:

I have no idea what any of that means.

Frankly Stan, I have not got a clue what your original criticism was as you answer clearly "Well none", so I assume you haven't got much of a clue neither.

[73Zeppelin]

Yes, that is quite evident to me.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

You should count casualties,

Too many columns. :)

Oakman wrote:

However, you seem not to grasp that when a soldier dies, a civilian family is affected.

Why would I not grasp the "bleedin' obvious"? The family is affected whether the departed is blown apart in uniform or in bed.

Oakman wrote:

to see their best friends die in front of them

As did my father, 19 years old, as part of the BEF in 1940, on the beaches at Dunkirk. Then with the 8th Army in North Africa and Italy.

Oakman wrote:

Russians fought a war of attrition

Perhaps there are degrees of attrition, military and civilian. To me, bombing cities to wear down the population is attrition.

Bob Emmett